inspectors and derating

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nizak

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I was just curious how many E.C. here actually have inspectors that will check wire size, conduit fill, and breaker size that the conductors are connected to. I did a commercial job that required everything leaving the panels to be in emt(surface mount panels on finished walls and ceiling). I took time to figure my circuitry so that derating was avoided, and thought the job came out quite well considering I had no drawings to go by.When it came time for the final insp, the inspector didn't even remove the panel covers led alone pop off a j-box cover and take a peek. He proceeded to check GFCI receptacles in the kitchen, and asked me to manually trip the Ansul system and checked for shutdown under the hood. I felt like I got robbed by paying $400.00 for a permit.
 
I have found little interest by inspectors in derating. I really don't know how they determine if anything is in compliance without removing a cover or opening a junction box. I had a similar installation with low bay lighting where we ran multiple conduits to avoid derating issues. He never checked anything beyond how the fixtures were mounted, a visual inspection from the floor 20' below. I no longer feel robbed and just accept this as the way things are done around here. I would still prefer this over an inspection where someone is measuring how close a staple is to a box on a cable.
 
once in a while I see inspector check that stuff, but govt jobs and jobs for poco are different story - those guys are right up our butts checking everything on some jobs.
 
iwire said:
This may sound goofy but I follow the code for myself, not the inspector.
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Exactly!
Just because you can get by with it doesn't mean you should.
 
ryan_618 said:
I write it when it occurs, and I check for it often.
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I wish someone around here actually would. If contractor A is running one conduit and jamming it with 30-40 conductors his competition, contractor B (us) who's running 4 or 5 conduits will never compete and probably never get the job in the first place.
 
I do check. on finals, the panel covers come off.
last week the 1-1/4 conduit to a 6x6 feeding a second floor office area with a dozen 1/2" emt's sprouting out from the j box kinda gives one a clue also.
probably find a derating probelm on maybe 5% of the commercial inspections.
 
I check for box fill, conduit fill and ampacity issues all the time. The guys here hate it. Maybe you should not worry so much if you are compliant.
Breaker sizing to the conductor, EGC sizing -feeders/parallel, parking lot lighting for upsizing phase conductors, proper sealing of conduits, the list goes on....
 
infinity said:
..contractor B (us) who's running 4 or 5 conduits will never compete and probably never get the job in the first place.
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How many years after the installation can fire investigators prosecute code violations responsible for property damage or bodily injury? Will insurance matter with older installations that cause fires?
 
Roger,FWIW, I have no idea as far as a timeframe for such actions. That is why when I do fire repair work I have the inspector go thru and tell me what they are requiring to be fixed. For the most part, if it does not pose a danger and is located in another area of the building apart from the fire repairs it does not have to be addressed unles the building owners have "code upgrade" coverage for the existing electrical. It's a sticky situation some times trying to determine how far to go with a job and who is going to pay the freight.
 
ramsy said:
How many years after the installation can fire investigators prosecute code violations responsible for property damage or bodily injury? Will insurance matter with older installations that cause fires?
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In Utah there is no statute of limitations for a code violation. If the job didn't meet code at the time it was built, the contractor is responsible for it forever.
 
ramsy said:
How many years after the installation can fire investigators prosecute code violations responsible for property damage or bodily injury? Will insurance matter with older installations that cause fires?
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Given the fact that most conductors don't operate at their full ampacity I would guess that very few fires are actually caused by not derating conductors. If all of these stuffed conduits were bursting into flames inspectors might actually look a little closer at the lack of derating.
 
I usually avoid derating by nippleing to a gutter mounted above the panel. Because nipples and gutters are not subject to derating you can then run all your conduits to the gutter and then you only have to deal with fill. Problem solved. :)
 
Rocky05 said:
I usually avoid derating by nippleing to a gutter mounted above the panel. Because nipples and gutters are not subject to derating you can then run all your conduits to the gutter and then you only have to deal with fill. Problem solved. :)
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you might want to take a peek at 366.23 (and 386.22)
 
ryan_618 said:
In Utah there is no statute of limitations for a code violation. If the job didn't meet code at the time it was built, the contractor is responsible for it forever.
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If it passed inspection, wouldn't it be hard to prove it didn't meet code at the time it was built?
 
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