Inspectors?

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IRC R303.6.1 Light activation. The control for the activation of the required interior stairway lighting shall be accessible at the the top and bottom of each stairway without traversing any steps. What do ya'll think.....3 way?
 
cowboyjwc said:
I



It says that I have the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, and I keep trying to say that two three ways is my interpretation.
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John
90.4 is not for wholesale "interpretation" of the NEC. It is for interpreting situations where either new equipment to the market is now available, or some type of installation does not conform to the NEC and your local area may have environmental or other issues affecting the decision. Otherwise we would have complete anarchy, and the real world would be very much like this forum...;):grin:


The NEC in general does not require 3-way switches.



In regards to some responses to my post, I am not sure what is actually being said/asked.


Yes, greenie type wirenuts are restricted in use.
Standard wirenuts are permitted for the installation within the effective ground fault current path.

If you are not sure and would like documentation, there are two avenues to pursue in finding that info.
1. Look at the IAEI Section meeting notes published by the IAEI, it should be there for this years meetings.

2. Call any of the UL offices across the country, and they will tell you the answer.
 
cowboyjwc said:
And a 3-way is required because I say it is and 90-4 gives me that authority.
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Do tell, exactly which sentence in 90.4 says an inspector can make up rules? Read it closely before answering and post the wording please.

cowboyjwc said:
I know what it says.
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So do the other participants in this thread, and what you know it says doesn't agree with the others as to what they know it says and they (we) are the majority.

Roger
 
Back to the original topic, does any one see a reason a standard wire nut that is listed to get electricity to the circuit would not be capable of returning it during a fault to ground? Does anyone know if the Ones listed for grounding are constructed any differently, other than the top hole in a greenie? The only reason I could think of is that most of the directions just say shove the wires into the nut and twist. If you pre-twist as I'm sure 99.9% of us do, the the wire nut offers mostly insulation value to us, stranded wire maybe needs the help. Any thoughts?
 
roger said:
Do tell, exactly which sentence in 90.4 says an inspector can make up rules? Read it closely before answering and post the wording please.



So do the other participants in this thread, and what you know it says doesn't agree with the others as to what they know it says and they (we) are the majority.

Roger
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90.4"....for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules."

There are gray areas in the code and some of them are there on purpose.

It also says that I can waive the rules ".....Where it is assured that the equivalent objectives can be achieved by establishing and maintaining effective safety."

From what I've seen it's only the contractors that don't agree, but then I had a contractor argue with me today about what "done" meant. Pierre just said I couldn't throw 90.4 out there as a cover all.


480sparky said:
So, if I have a split-foyer home, with a landing at the front door, and steps going from there up to the upper level as well as the lower level, how do you interpret that so I can wire that home in your jurisdiction?
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"......At each floor level, and landing level that includes an entryway...."

So you would put in a 4-way switch and two three ways as long as there were six or more stairs going in each direction.

Or as some have suggested I guess you could put in three lights and three single pole switches so then you could turn on the light to walk down the stairs so that you could go get your flashlight so when you walked up the stairs to turn off the light you would have light so that you could walk down again.:smile:

Now I'm through arguing about this. What they allow in your jurisdictions has no bearing on me, I'm not the one signing the card. If they let you do something other than what I've said then that's great, unless you plan to do that here.
 
cowboyjwc said:
.....So you would put in a 4-way switch and two three ways as long as there were six or more stairs going in each direction. ......
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Wow. I assumed your interpretation would be 2 pairs of three-ways. How am I to know how you are going to interpret other areas of the Code?:cool:
 
LLSolutions said:
Back to the original topic, does any one see a reason a standard wire nut that is listed to get electricity to the circuit would not be capable of returning it during a fault to ground? Does anyone know if the Ones listed for grounding are constructed any differently, other than the top hole in a greenie? The only reason I could think of is that most of the directions just say shove the wires into the nut and twist. If you pre-twist as I'm sure 99.9% of us do, the the wire nut offers mostly insulation value to us, stranded wire maybe needs the help. Any thoughts?
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LL, what you said make complete sense to me, which means absolutely nothing. That being said, I can't see how a brass crimp sleeve that hold together twisted EGCs is any better than a red, yellow, tan, or green wirenut.
 
LLSolutions said:
Back to the original topic, does any one see a reason a standard wire nut that is listed to get electricity to the circuit would not be capable of returning it during a fault to ground? Does anyone know if the Ones listed for grounding are constructed any differently, other than the top hole in a greenie? The only reason I could think of is that most of the directions just say shove the wires into the nut and twist. If you pre-twist as I'm sure 99.9% of us do, the the wire nut offers mostly insulation value to us, stranded wire maybe needs the help. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I think the constant pressure the internal spring applies to the wires to remain in contact (pre-twist or no) is just as important as the insulation value. They don't seem to be made any different.
 
John,
90.4"....for deciding on the approval of equipment and materials, and for granting the special permission contemplated in a number of the rules."
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does not say or allow you to make up rules.

If you read it and try to actually comprehend what it is saying you will see it for yourself.

Roger
 
You'll need a small piece of black electrician's tape to cover the hole on the "greenie"...one about the size shown right here...
  • :D
Now that's taping your wirenuts!
 
480sparky said:
Wow. I assumed your interpretation would be 2 pairs of three-ways. How am I to know how you are going to interpret other areas of the Code?:cool:
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You could do that too. I was trying to save you a switch.:smile: Use less energy your way though.

You won't know until you come and work here.:D What does the code say about using the ceiling grid wires to secure your conduit to? It says you need your own means of support and it is to be secured at both ends. Pretty simple right? City of Los Angeles does not want it secured to the ceiling grid. That's not even an interpretation that's just because they say so. You're going to find different answers to the same question everywhere you go. Not only will it change from city to city it will change from desk to desk.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Now I'm through arguing about this. What they allow in your jurisdictions has no bearing on me, I'm not the one signing the card. If they let you do something other than what I've said then that's great, unless you plan to do that here.
Click to expand...

See, that's the thing about some inspectors. They get it in their 10 gallon head that they ARE the AHJ with a badge to prove it and they won't budge one inch once their mind is made up.
 
Back to the original post

Back to the original post

Back in 2002 Mike Holt did his 'Code Questions' section for ECM magazine - ~ August.

Q: "Some inspectors are requiring green colored wirenuts when splicing EGCs. Are they right?"

A: [from Ideal] - Yes...blah, blah sales pitch.

A: UL

Answer - UL
Mike ? I?d like to respond to your inquiry to UL regarding the use of twist-on type wire connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors. I believe that to properly answer this inquiry we need to reference requirements in both the NEC and the guide information which UL provides for listed products.
Sec. 250-8 of the NEC indicates that grounding conductors shall be connected by exothermic welding, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Pressure wire connectors are listed under the category of Wire Connectors and Soldering Lugs (UL Guide ZMVV). A ?twist-on? connector is a type of pressure cable connector that is tested to the UL Standard for Splicing Wire Connectors, UL486C. The requirements for these connectors include mechanical securement tests, as well as their ability to carry continuous current within acceptable temperature limits. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Wire Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container. Based on this information, a listed ?Wire Connector,? including the twist-on type, should be suitable for connecting equipment grounding conductors. There was also some question regarding the color of the connector insulation. Listed insulated twist-on type wire connectors are typically provided in a variety of insulation colors, however, to the best of our knowledge we have not listed a wire connector with green color insulation.
NEC Sec. 250-119 requires covered or insulated equipment grounding conductors to have a green or green with yellow stripes outer finish, but there is no NEC requirement for the color of the insulation of a wire connector used to connect equipment grounding conductors.
NEC Sec. 250-8 also permits ?other listed means? for connecting grounding conductors. UL has a category for Grounding and Bonding Equipment (UL Guide KDER). Grounding Connectors are a special type of connector that is tested to the UL467 Standard for Grounding and Bonding Equipment. The requirements for grounding connectors include mechanical securement tests, but unlike wire connectors, these connectors are not subjected to a continuous current test. In lieu of this test, there is a special short time current test in UL467 to show the ability of a grounding connector to safely conduct fault current. There are some listed twist-on type connectors with green color insulation that are listed as grounding connectors. Listed products in this category are identified by the words ?Grounding Connector? (or abbreviation there of) near the UL Listing Mark which may be on the product or smallest unit container.
It should be noted that grounding connectors are only used for connecting grounding conductors, and unlike listed wire connectors, cannot be used to connect current carrying conductors (including grounded and ungrounded conductors). There are some listed Wire Connectors of the twist-on type that are also tested and complementary listed as Grounding Connectors, and the listing mark information for these products will identify them as both. The insulation on these connectors (with both listings) can be various colors, except green. We understand that some jurisdictional authorities may require listed grounding connectors for connecting equipment grounding conductors, and some may require only those with green insulation, and this is certainly permitted by Sec. 90-4 of the NEC. To satisfy this need, the listing categories of ?Grounding Connectors?, and ?Wire Connectors complementary listed as Grounding Connectors? were established for the manufacturers of these products.

I apologize for this somewhat lengthy explanation, but I believe this detailed information is helpful to those who are interested in understanding the rationale behind product requirements and listings of this type. We at UL are always interested in ways to improve our service to the electrical community, and if you or your readers have any suggestions in this regard, please let us know.

Regards, David Dini, P.E. Sr. Research Engineer Underwriters Laboratories Inc. Northbrook, Illinois Phone: 847 664-2982 Fax: 847 509-6285 Email: David.A.Dini@us.ul.com </ym/Compose?To=David.A.Dini@us.ul.com&YY=9037&order=down&sort=date&pos=0>

Mike Holt's Comment: Thank you Dave for taking the time to resolve this issue.
 
480sparky said:
I'll save a ton of switches by putting only one switch on each level. Or do you interpret 210.70(A)(1) different too?
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He said that he came in one level and then you have to walk either up or down. That's three levels that's three switches or one switch on each level. Same thing you just said.
 
Minuteman said:
See, that's the thing about some inspectors. They get it in their 10 gallon head that they ARE the AHJ with a badge to prove it and they won't budge one inch once their mind is made up.
Click to expand...


It's the same as many contractors we meet. My way is the right way, all the other guys are doing it wrong.

Oh and we don't have badges, there were to many injuries from guys sticking them up our ......., but it fit nicely, with all the code books I've been told to shove up there, it's kind of streched out. And before anyone else says it, no my heads not up there.
 
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acrwc10 said:
Are you talking about "Grounding electrode conductors" 250.64 (C)(1) or are you talking about "Equipment grounding conductor" 250.120 ?
I haven't heard of equipment grounding conductor needing an irreversible splice before? Wire nuts are what I always see, maybe I am just misreading your post.
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I use wire nuts about 15% of the time on equpment grounding conductors.what the inspector might take issue with is if I didnt use the listed Buchannan tool to crimp buchannan sleeves.Also how is a greenie any differant than a wire nut in regards to irreversibility?The only differance is that a greenie can only be used for the grounding conducter and a wire nut is for splicing wires in general.
 
Pierre,

I like your moderate approach to this issue.

Quote/
The NEC in general does not require 3-way switches.
/Quote

Given the example of Lights in a stairwell,
and the requirement for some kind of switch:
Could we say that this is a "Personal Safety" issue,
and not an "Electrical Safety" issue.

As some others have written,
the use of 3-ways / 4-ways is what most people consider safe,
and
so "I say" we should install these if we want to get paid for a good job.

...
 
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