Installing gfi outlet in a non grounded house

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480sparky said:
Doesn't matter. UL only recognizes the internal test mechanism.
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As a testing method. It should still trip on a fault over 6 mA. I sure hope if you pressed such a tester button and it didn't trip you would at very least also press the test button on the device to see if that trips it.
 
kwired said:
As a testing method. It should still trip on a fault over 6 mA. I sure hope if you pressed such a tester button and it didn't trip you would at very least also press the test button on the device to see if that trips it.
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Yes, it SHOULD trip. If it doesn't, then the on-board (and ONLY the on-board) test button should be tried. If it trips, then you're golden.

I've had a few cases where a plug-in tester won't trip an upstream GFCI. But the button on the GFCI trips it. That's all I need. As well as any qualified inspector.
 
480sparky said:
Ever see written instructions that say external testing devices are permitted and accepted?

Back to the OP.... an ungrounded GFCI will not trip with an external tester. It cannot because there's no ground to send a 'fault' to.
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I haven't seen any that says you can, but I take instructions like I take the code. If it doesn't say you can't, you can.

As far as the inspector using an external tester, that is just an education issue for the inspector.
 
This NEMA Document shows the use of plug in type GFCI testers, with a comment that that you must use the built in test button where there is no equipment grounding conductor.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I haven't seen any that says you can, but I take instructions like I take the code. If it doesn't say you can't, you can.

As far as the inspector using an external tester, that is just an education issue for the inspector.
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When I buy a Raco 189 box, the instructions don't say I can't use it in a wet location. So I'll just use one with a GFCI and an in-use cover instead of a Bell box.

If you expect a piece of equipment to come with a COMPLETE, DETAILED LIST of everything you can and cannot do with it, expect a New York City-sized phone-book size instruction sheet.

don_resqcapt19 said:
This NEMA Document shows the use of plug in type GFCI testers, with a comment that that you must use the built in test button where there is no equipment grounding conductor.
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But NEMA documents aren't adopted by AHJs.
 
480sparky said:
When I buy a Raco 189 box, the instructions don't say I can't use it in a wet location. So I'll just use one with a GFCI and an in-use cover instead of a Bell box.

If you expect a piece of equipment to come with a COMPLETE, DETAILED LIST of everything you can and cannot do with it, expect a New York City-sized phone-book size instruction sheet.



But NEMA documents aren't adopted by AHJs.
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Is there instructions for said box?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I haven't seen any that says you can, but I take instructions like I take the code. If it doesn't say you can't, you can.

As far as the inspector using an external tester, that is just an education issue for the inspector.
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But wouldn't that still be a violation 0f 110.3(B)?

I mean, the inspector could go nuts with the ext tester and do as many "tests" as he wants to....but if he has not pressed that button,
he has not performed a valid test of the device according to the ​instructions incl w/ the device.
 
The only real reason for using a plug-in GFCI tester is to see that down-stream fed-through receptacles are protected by a GFCI.
 
480sparky said:
But NEMA documents aren't adopted by AHJs.
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they kinda are via NEC. if its a NEMA device (and UL listed) then the AHJ must accept it for the device that it is, along with all of the specifications that come with (UL listings and included directions)

one could argue directly from NEC book, that it says replacing a NEMA 1-15R has to be done using GFCI means, so either NEMA 5- GFCI or via a OCPD to protect the whole ckt.
 
480sparky said:
When I buy a Raco 189 box, the instructions don't say I can't use it in a wet location. So I'll just use one with a GFCI and an in-use cover instead of a Bell box.
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The code address that.
If you expect a piece of equipment to come with a COMPLETE, DETAILED LIST of everything you can and cannot do with it, expect a New York City-sized phone-book size instruction sheet.
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If it is critical to proving the operational safety of the device, I do expect it to be in the instructions.
But NEMA documents aren't adopted by AHJs.
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I am not aware of anything adopted by AHJs that says you can't use a plug in tester. NEMA documents are written by the manufacturers and if the manufacturers of the GFCI devices had an issue with plug in testers, I would expect to see that mentioned.

There is just no reason not to use a plug in GFCI tester unless the GFCI protected circuit does not have an EGC.

UL943 does not address the issue of using a plug in tester, but does require that the device have a built in tester.
 
Dennis, what cycle is the code section you cited, and if not the 17, does the 17 NEC read the same? I thought there were AFCI req's in there....

If it's the same in the 17, then ALL of Mr. Yeager's inspectors are wrong.
 
JFletcher said:
Dennis, what cycle is the code section you cited, and if not the 17, does the 17 NEC read the same? I thought there were AFCI req's in there....

If it's the same in the 17, then ALL of Mr. Yeager's inspectors are wrong.
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Thank you for your replies, That day, as I was questioning the inspector's instructions (with respect), he kept using as a reason; the gfi appears to be grounded. (3 holes) Since it is not, that is not allowed. (that along with, he said he simulated a short with his tester, and said it is still live and someone could get shocked.)
 
Stevenfyeager said:
Thank you for your replies, That day, as I was questioning the inspector's instructions (with respect), he kept using as a reason; the gfi appears to be grounded. (3 holes) Since it is not, that is not allowed. (that along with, he said he simulated a short with his tester, and said it is still live and someone could get shocked.)
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Hence why GFCI receptacles w/o a grounding conductor have the sticker "No Equipment Ground" that you add after installation.
 
Stevenfyeager said:
(that along with, he said he simulated a short with his tester, and said it is still live and someone could get shocked.)
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If it faults to something that is actually grounded it will trip, which is why NEC allows GFCI protection where there is no EGC in replacement situations.
 
JFletcher said:
Hence why GFCI receptacles w/o a grounding conductor have the sticker "No Equipment Ground" that you add after installation.
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finish the process......... which falls off later ;)

@ Don - doesnt the UL listing say that the onboard tester should be used, and that the external tester is allowed but is not all inclusive test. "not all inclusive", as in it works if EGC is there, will not work when EGC is not there.

the inspector cannot fail inspection because his ext tester did not trip gfi on a 2-wire recept. NEC has always allowed that, and in the later book requires it for 1R replacements.

why is this an argument? call the AHJ directly, problem solved.
 
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