installing with existing violations

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triplstep

triplstep

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Aurora, Illinois
I went to install a swag lamp on a ceiling today in a small commercial building. A receptacle was to be mounted flush with the ceiling to energize the lamp using the switch. The ceiling had existing layins, connected with fmc, fed from one jb. Two 1/2 emt were also connected at the jb, one with three conductors, no white or gray, and the other a white and black.

Of the three conductors in one raceway, two were ungrounded, and black was used as the grounded, 120 volts. The raceway with the black and white conductors were used as the switch leg. The white was used as the return leg.

I told the customer I did not want to complete the installation with the current violations. I did tell them I'd correct them, and said that probably I could complete it in a days work or less. They asked if it was a fire hazard, no, but making connections to a violation is not my thing. As the tenant, they did not want to sign off on that. I replaced the ceiling tile and headed out of dodge.

What would you have done?
 
I deal with existing code violations all the time here in the District. I had to draw a line somewhere and if it is not creating a life health safety issue I simply document on the report and let it go. In this case 200.6, 200.7 Normally here building management wants it taken care of and will pay to correct it. But I have a great working relationship with EC'S and Building management here so all gets corrected without the proverbial red tag so to speak.
 
triplstep said:
They asked if it was a fire hazard, no, but making connections to a violation is not my thing. As the tenant, they did not want to sign off on that. I replaced the ceiling tile and headed out of dodge.

What would you have done?
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The landlord will send in his jackleg of the week and probably make it worse.
Did you leave a card for the LL to know who to call and get it done right?
 
I would use a 2 wire recpt, get out the phase tape to help the next guy, make the bill and get to the next call. Mabey even sell them a gfi to protect from hazards of the missing ground. Guys doing small projects and service work by appointment see alot of stuff they just have to work w/ the best they can. Save this action for the day when you find the wire but no conduit or the #12 on a 50amp brkr ect...
 
Where do you draw the line? Article 200 is too important to violate. It is not that tough of an Article to wrap your head around either. I find it incredibly lazy of the electrician, or the lack of knowledge of the electrician to have pulled and connected the color configuration of conductors. It is a sign....... stuff is probably wrong in other places too. I did not want to own any part of the installation of the building. I booked.......
 
triplstep said:
Where do you draw the line?
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Your right , that is why this is one of the few trades that require you to be licensed.
As far as where do you draw the line. It's dificult, you hate to hit the owner with bad news. But some times you have to.
Definitly if it is some thing that will start a fire or electrocution.
You know it was not until 93 or 96 that you had to phase the white when used as a hot. Unless it was in a conduit, like yours.
 
Well, good luck with a career full of perfection and never putting the blinders on even a little. Also, I find it incredibly vein to ask a question only in hopes of preaching "your" answer to us all.
 
All you did was lose a customer and maybe even a few more after he bad mouths you. I would point the problem out and note it on my bill. That was not a hard job to deal with. If something that easy sets you off your in for a rough ride.
 
TexasMaster said:
Well, good luck with a career full of perfection and never putting the blinders on even a little. Also, I find it incredibly vein to ask a question only in hopes of preaching "your" answer to us all.
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TexasMaster, Don't be bustin out some Carly Simon on me :D

I can sometimes look past things: box fill, derating, strapping, 360 rule, while on service work. I won't violate them necessarily, but all things being equal, I won't worry about it.

I usually NEVER will put the blinders on with Art 200.

This call was extending a circuit.

I would have had to connect my grounded conductor to black, source yet unknown, and ungrounded conductor to white. I would have pulled a new switch leg if the grounded conductor wasn't #12 BLACK. Many a greener electrician could have learned a tough lesson with the way the jb looked. I hope I get to go back and finish this up, I could use the work, and fix a safety issue.
 
A tenant is not about to fix the landlords building just to add a receptacle. There had to some way to fix this in an hour or 2. Take it off something that was wired right.
 
Sure Jim, it could have been easy, pulling the new conductor for the switch leg was a no brainer.

But I could have had a boatload of ceiling tile laying around until I found the 'properly identified grounded conductor'.

So I let them know it could take some time. They said no. I lost some money. It might come back, it might not, but I'll sleep okay
 
Next time when you look up in the cieling tile. Just come down. Just keep shaking your head for about ten minutes. saying "oh no" Oh No" over and over.
Then give them a price to fix it.
 
triplstep, you probaly think this song is about you:D but tell me if I'm wrong here guys; in annex h 80.9 b & c (2008nec) I find my justification to add the new & correct work to the existing violation which I stated earlier that I would make practical safeguards to.
 
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First let me say welcome to the forum. I hope you stick around, there is a lot to learn here as I can attest to.

I got to know, what did you do with the money your family gave you for voice lessons? :D



TexasMaster said:
in annex h 80.9 b & c (2008nec) I find my justification
to add the new & correct work to the existing violation...........
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Article 80 is not enforceable unless adopted. See Annex note that Art 80 resides in.


TexasMaster said:
........which I stated earlier that I would make practical safeguards to.
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below must be the post you are referring to.

TexasMaster said:
I would use a 2 wire recpt, get out the phase tape to help the next guy, make the bill and get to the next call. Mabey even sell them a gfi to protect from hazards of the missing ground. Guys doing small projects and service work by appointment see alot of stuff they just have to work w/ the best they can. Save this action for the day when you find the wire but no conduit or the #12 on a 50amp brkr ect...
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Violations.
1) 406.3 Where a grounding means exists in the receptacle enclosure or a grounding conductor is installed in accordance with 250.130(C), grounding-type receptacles shall be used
2) 200.6 An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.


As posted earlier, where do you draw the line? At some point prior violations have to be cleaned up so additions can be compliant.
 
triplstep said:
As posted earlier, where do you draw the line?
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I posted one early on in this thread about drawing a line on existing conditions. I do not turn a blind eye on someting as in reidentifing the grounded conductor or pulling the correct color in a raceway but what are we going to have them do rip it all out that was installed years ago. Granted new work is being connected to existing and new work will be enforced for compliancy but good grief if one opens up a box and sees a white wire connected to a black one then duh.....From the OP this is not a residence where un qualified persons (as in HO's) are on the site. Some times common sense and experience must rule.
 
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