insulated ground for swimming pools

[kwired]

any in-ground wiring requires insulated egc. did i miss something from nec ?

Unless you can point out what you though you didn't miss, read 250.119, allows EGC's to be bare and doesn't mention any specific locations being excluded. Swimming pool sections do trump the general rules and I know there is some places in 517 and 547 as well that would require insulated conductors and also trump the general rules.

250.120(B) does put some restrictions on where you can run bare aluminum EGC's.

 

[mbrooke]

Guess to clear things up for me... when is an insulated EGC required for a pool or spa?

 

[Little Bill]

Guess to clear things up for me... when is an insulated EGC required for a pool or spa?

Just off the top of my head (too late to look up), a feeder to a panel supplying pool equipment & underwater lights are two of them.

 

[mbrooke]

Just off the top of my head (too late to look up), a feeder to a panel supplying pool equipment & underwater lights are two of them.

Would UF count in these instances?

 

[JFletcher]

Would UF count in these instances?

UF has a jacketed ground, not an insulated one. Doesnt count.

 

[mbrooke]

UF has a jacketed ground, not an insulated one. Doesnt count.

This has me wondering... why require an insulted ground in the first place?

 

[kwired]

UF has a jacketed ground, not an insulated one. Doesnt count.

NEC refers to it as "covered".

 

[FionaZuppa]

hmmm, can you even use UF? 680.25, does it list UF ? seems to be restricted to types of conduits. doesnt UF technically have an insulated egc? i thought anything to a pool device had to be in conduit and egc had to be insulated? so perhaps UF in conduit is allowed, UF just buried in the dirt is not?

am i wrong, in general, anything "water" related needs insulated egc.

For any of these wiring methods, an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor sized per 250.122 is required — but it's never allowed to be smaller than 12 AWG [680.21(A)(1)]. Other wiring methods or materials are allowed for specific reasons listed in 680.21, as long as the insulated equipment grounding conductor rule is followed [680.21(A)(1)]. For instance, liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit with approved fittings are allowed where flexibility is necessary [680.21(A)(3)].

 

[kwired]

hmmm, can you even use UF? 680.25, does it list UF ? seems to be restricted to types of conduits. doesnt UF technically have an insulated egc? i thought anything to a pool device had to be in conduit and egc had to be insulated? so perhaps UF in conduit is allowed, UF just buried in the dirt is not?

EGC in UF is "covered" not insulated. Any place requiring it to be insulated would not allow UF whether direct buried or in a raceway.

Does it really matter? IDK. But that is the way it reads.

 

[FionaZuppa]

EGC in UF is "covered" not insulated. Any place requiring it to be insulated would not allow UF whether direct buried or in a raceway.

Does it really matter? IDK. But that is the way it reads.

in UF the egc is completely encapsulated by the molded jacket material?

but ok, if UF is not insulated egc then by 680 you cant use UF type ?

 

[augie47]

in UF the egc is completely encapsulated by the molded jacket material?

but ok, if UF is not insulated egc then by 680 you cant use UF type ?

.
back to square 1 (earlier posts)... there are areas in Art 680 that don't require an insulated equipment ground such as 680.21(A)(4), 680.22, 680.27(B)......

 

[FionaZuppa]

.
back to square 1 (earlier posts)... there are areas in Art 680 that don't require an insulated equipment ground such as 680.21(A)(4), 680.22, 680.27(B)......

680.21, does that whole section say the egc has to be insulated? we are talking about outside the dwelling unit, no ??

what am i missing? i believe bc's and feeders carry the same requirements?

680.25 Feeders
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeder conductors to panelboards containing permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub equipment circuits must be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or PVC conduit. Electrical metallic tubing is permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing is permitted where installed within a building.
Exception: Branch circuits for permanently installed pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub equipment can originate from an existing panelboard where the existing feeder contains an equipment grounding conductor within the outer sheath of a cable.
(B) Equipment Grounding Conductor. An insulated copper or aluminum equipment grounding conductor must be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool, outdoor spa, or outdoor hot tub equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment.

 

[iwire]

in UF the egc is completely encapsulated by the molded jacket material?

Yes

if UF is not insulated egc then by 680 you cant use UF type ?

For the specific items that require an insulated EGC that is correct.

 

[FionaZuppa]

For the specific items that require an insulated EGC that is correct.

which seems to be just about everything that is outside and is wiring that is related to a body of water.
680.27, i would still use insulated egc, might also argue that because the other sections for feeders and bc's require the insulated egc and they cover "equipment", then 680.27 still need insulated egc.

 

[iwire]

which seems to be just about everything that is outside and is wiring that is related to a body of water.

680 applies to more than pools and 680 does not require an insulted ground for any wiring related to a body of water.

 

[FionaZuppa]

680 applies to more than pools and 680 does not require an insulted ground for any wiring related to a body of water.

yes, 680 is just about everything that is water related. so i agree, more than just pools.
so 680.25 ??

 

[augie47]

There remain a few, but very few, exceptions to the insulated equipment ground requirement.
The exception in 680.25 as you note, and a branch circuit to a pool water heater which was the original issue in this thread are two of such areas.

 

[iwire]

yes, 680 is just about everything that is water related. so i agree, more than just pools.
so 680.25 ??

I no longer understand what you are getting at.

680.25 does not apply to all equipment near water.

 

[Johnnybob]

Hmm. So you can't pull UF for a hot tub? Now I'm confused!:?

 

[JFletcher]

Hmm. So you can't pull UF for a hot tub? Now I'm confused!:?

Correct. The motors require an insulated grounding wire from the disco to the tub, and since you're gonna have to use raceway anyway, might as well pull 3-4 appropriate sized wires and forget the UF. Most tubs the motor cant be wired separately anyway.