Insulated Grounding of a Spa or Hot Tub

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master

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Having difficulties interpreting the code for this application. Installed a 6-3 copper romex wire to a 50 amp dissconnect with a GFCI breaker 50 amp. On the load side of the dissconnect, I installed a 6-3 romex jacket still attached, inside of a 3/4 carflex to the control board the copper grounding conductor was uninsulated. The inspector said that the copper grounding wire had to be insulated starting from the inside of the dwelling to the dissconnect and then the load side of the dissconnect...He sited article 680.42 (C)


I corrected the problem as per 680.42 C and installed an insulated #12 grounding conductor .. The inspector said that I needed a #10 for a 6-3 conductor. I said that as per article 680.42 (C) The copper equipment grounding conductor THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH OF THE WIRING METHOD AND NOT SMALLER THAN #12 AWG SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE USED FOR THE CONNECTON TO MOTOR,HEATING AND CONTROL LOADS THAT ARE PART OF A SELF CONTAINED SPA OR HOT TUB ASSEMBLY...


1. Why does the copper ground have to be insulated going from the dissconnect!?

2. I understand that a #10 wire is the copper ground for #6 copper but 680.42 (C) says not smaller than #12 why can't you use #12!? Like the code article states!?

Can anyone out there help me in interpreting this!?


Chris Michaels
 
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Second part first: they're saying that a #12 is the minimum EGC permitted, not that the EGC never has to be larger. The size of the circuit still determines the minimum EGC size. One code rule doesn't eliminate the requirement to follow others.

As for the NM, it's not allowed outdoors anyway. A conduit or raceway, even if 100% waterproof, is not a location. The EGC should probably be insulated for a couple of reasons: 1) it will last longer, and 2) not contribute to shock hazard.

Typically, the few inches of an indoor wiring method are accepted to terminate in an outside disco enclsure, such as an AC unit. The exterior portion should never be NM. Maybe others can offer more on the insulated-EGC requirement.
 
master said:
Having difficulties interpreting the code for this application. Installed a 6-3 copper romex wire to a 50 amp dissconnect with a GFCI breaker 50 amp.

2. I understand that a #10 wire is the copper ground for #6 copper but 680.42 (C) says not smaller than #12 why can't you use #12!? Like the code article states.
Click to expand...


Go to table 250.122 and check for correct equipment grounding conductor size.

If it were a 20 Amp breaker you could use a #12 equipment ground.
 
master said:
... I installed a 6-3 romex jacket still attached, inside of a 3/4 carflex to the control board the copper grounding conductor was uninsulated. The inspector said that the copper grounding wire had to be insulated starting from the inside of the dwelling to the dissconnect and then the load side of the dissconnect...He sited article 680.42 (C)...Can anyone out there help me in interpreting this!?


Chris Michaels
Grandmastc@aol.com
Click to expand...

How long is /was the flex? Was it hard to install the 6-3 in the 3/4"?
 
master said:
Having difficulties interpreting the code for this application. Installed a 6-3 copper romex wire to a 50 amp dissconnect with a GFCI breaker 50 amp. On the load side of the dissconnect, I installed a 6-3 romex jacket still attached, inside of a 3/4 carflex to the control board the copper grounding conductor was uninsulated. The inspector said that the copper grounding wire had to be insulated starting from the inside of the dwelling to the dissconnect and then the load side of the dissconnect...He sited article 680.42 (C)


I corrected the problem as per 680.42 C and installed an insulated #12 grounding conductor .. The inspector said that I needed a #10 for a 6-3 conductor. I said that as per article 680.42 (C) The copper equipment grounding conductor THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH OF THE WIRING METHOD AND NOT SMALLER THAN #12 AWG SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE USED FOR THE CONNECTON TO MOTOR,HEATING AND CONTROL LOADS THAT ARE PART OF A SELF CONTAINED SPA OR HOT TUB ASSEMBLY...


1. Why does the copper ground have to be insulated going from the dissconnect!?

2. I understand that a #10 wire is the copper ground for #6 copper but 680.42 (C) says not smaller than #12 why can't you use #12!? Like the code article states!?

Can anyone out there help me in interpreting this!?


Chris Michaels
Grandmastc@aol.com
Click to expand...

6/3 romex needs to be installed in a 1'' conduit, dry locations only, just for starters.
 
LarryFine said:
Second part first: they're saying that a #12 is the minimum EGC permitted, not that the EGC never has to be larger. The size of the circuit still determines the minimum EGC size. One code rule doesn't eliminate the requirement to follow others.

As for the NM, it's not allowed outdoors anyway. A conduit or raceway, even if 100% waterproof, is not a location. The EGC should probably be insulated for a couple of reasons: 1) it will last longer, and 2) not contribute to shock hazard.

Typically, the few inches of an indoor wiring method are accepted to terminate in an outside disco enclsure, such as an AC unit. The exterior portion should never be NM. Maybe others can offer more on the insulated-EGC requirement.
Click to expand...

So in a sence 680.42 (C) dosen't apply here!? The NM was put into 3/4 Carflex it had less than 4" of bare copper inside of the spa, and inside of the dissconnect. The first time the inspector failed this, I went and wrapped green vinal tape around the exposed copper in the dissconnect and inside the SPA. The inspector didn't like that either, and made me pull that out and I then junctioned off the NM inside the house and then ran #12 ground from inside to the dissconnect and thn from the load side to the SPA. As per 680.42 (C)

I really think that 680.42 should have a more clear definition or just be omitted from the code, it also states in that article COPPER EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH (OUTER SHEATH!) Does that mean romex jacket!?

I'm not trying to undermind the inspector, but I think there's a allot of ambiguity here as far as whats right and wrong , and the kicker is that the inspector the authority having juristiction can overide the code anyway!


Would an acceptable alternative be to drive a ground rod and bond the SPA!?
 
master said:
So in a sence 680.42 (C) dosen't apply here!? The NM was put into 3/4 Carflex it had less than 4" of bare copper inside of the spa, and inside of the dissconnect. The first time the inspector failed this, I went and wrapped green vinal tape around the exposed copper in the dissconnect and inside the SPA. The inspector didn't like that either, and made me pull that out and I then junctioned off the NM inside the house and then ran #12 ground from inside to the dissconnect and thn from the load side to the SPA. As per 680.42 (C)

I really think that 680.42 should have a more clear definition or just be omitted from the code, it also states in that article COPPER EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH (OUTER SHEATH!) Does that mean romex jacket!?

I'm not trying to undermind the inspector, but I think there's a allot of ambiguity here as far as whats right and wrong , and the kicker is that the inspector the authority having juristiction can overide the code anyway!


Would an acceptable alternative be to drive a ground rod and bond the SPA!?
Click to expand...

680.42 applies to the interior wiring. That mean inside the house.

You have to have an insulated #10 with the wiring from the disconnect to the spa.

You also can NOT run sleeve romex outside anyway so you have a violation the inspector didn't mention. Probably because he figured you would remove it and run thhn through the flex not, tape the egc with green tape. .

For once I can say, Listen to the inspector!!

The ground rod will do nothing for you and will not correct your violations.

I suggest some quality time with article 680 might be in order here.
 
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master said:
Having difficulties interpreting the code for this application. Installed a 6-3 copper romex wire to a 50 amp dissconnect with a GFCI breaker 50 amp. On the load side of the dissconnect,
Click to expand...

Allowed by 680.42 (C)

master said:
I installed a 6-3 romex jacket still attached, inside of a 3/4 carflex to the control board the copper grounding conductor was uninsulated.
Click to expand...

Not allowed, you need to use a insulated ground and wire rated for a wet location. Such as THWN.

master said:
The inspector said that the copper grounding wire had to be insulated starting from the inside of the dwelling to the dissconnect and then the load side of the dissconnect...He sited article 680.42 (C)
Click to expand...

Or enclosed within the outer sheath of the wiring method and not smaller than # 12.

master said:
I corrected the problem as per 680.42 C and installed an insulated #12 grounding conductor .. The inspector said that I needed a #10 for a 6-3 conductor. I said that as per article 680.42 (C) The copper equipment grounding conductor THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH OF THE WIRING METHOD AND NOT SMALLER THAN #12 AWG SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE USED FOR THE CONNECTON TO MOTOR,HEATING AND CONTROL LOADS THAT ARE PART OF A SELF CONTAINED SPA OR HOT TUB ASSEMBLY...
Click to expand...

Your misreading that section.



You need to really spend some time reading artice 680.
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/Pooldownload.pdf
 
Originally Posted by master
I corrected the problem as per 680.42 C and installed an insulated #12 grounding conductor .. The inspector said that I needed a #10 for a 6-3 conductor. I said that as per article 680.42 (C) The copper equipment grounding conductor THAT IS INSULATED OR ENCLOSED WITHIN THE OUTER SHEATH OF THE WIRING METHOD AND NOT SMALLER THAN #12 AWG SHALL BE PERMITTED TO BE USED FOR THE CONNECTON TO MOTOR,HEATING AND CONTROL LOADS THAT ARE PART OF A SELF CONTAINED SPA OR HOT TUB ASSEMBLY...
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the inspector is correct. As stickboy said you misread this section. It means that you cannot use an EGC smaller than 12. Thus I would say even if you had a 15 amp circuit you would need a #12. Doesn't make sense but....

However if your circuit is larger like 30 amp or 60 amp then you must follow T250.122
 
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