Internet throughout entire house question

[KentAT]

the house is about 5000 sq ft and I'm almost certain without even getting started that the internet signal will be too weak to provide any connection by the time it runs down stairs to a low voltage box then out to about 12 jacks 50 to 150 ft away.

How exactly is this wired? If you mean that the single ethernet cable from the modem is run somewhere else, then split up to 12 locations, you can't do this without a router or switch for it to be sent to 12 locations.

Please explain the details of the HO installation...

Kent

 

[brantmacga]

. . . Anyway I'm really suprised that you guys all say it can work up to 300 ft. So with the basic cable company modem I can brodcast out 300 ft without any problems? I don't know if the cable company's equipment makes a difference but I find that hard to believe. I've never had a signal work at around 100 ft. I'm 99% positive that my connections and configurations are correct. Has anyone here had a similar problem or is it just me?

yes, it will work perfectly. 328' is the limit.


that 1% you're unsure of is a lot of room for error.

i use switches instead of routers for this type of installation as A) you don't need one for this setup, ,B) they cost less.

Another thing to consider; if the modem is going to be installed next to a computer, you're going to need it hooked to that computer and to the network, so unless you have two ethernet jacks at that location, you'll need a switch next to the computer to connect the modem and computer, then use the ethernet at the wall to uplink to another switch feeding the rest of the house.

How exactly is this wired? If you mean that the single ethernet cable from the modem is run somewhere else, then split up to 12 locations, you can't do this without a router or switch for it to be sent to 12 locations.

Please explain the details of the HO installation...

I'm pretty sure what the OP means is that the incoming phone line is going to a home network panel, then out to 12 locations.

 

[hbiss]

What can I use to boost this signal and provide the whole house with internet connections? What have you guys done to solve this problem?

Not to be snotty but there should be no problem. I suggest that either you get educated on simple ethernet networking or refer the job to someone who knows what they are doing. Obviously this is not a job for you.

-Hal

 

[gar]

090116-2111 EST

Mike Lang:

I have run tests with import CAT-5E cable and been able to operate to well over 350 ft before there was any error problem. You should have solid communication at 100 M (328.1 ft) with CAT-5E.

CAT-5E consists of four twisted pairs. These are twisted with a different twist pitch for each pair. Some cable made by Belden has the pairs mechanically bonded, probably by heat, to keep the pairs from shifting relative to one another. The non-equal twist pitches is to minimize cross talk.

For a transmit channel you must use one pair and for a receive channel a different pair. You can not mix one wire of one pair with a wire of a different pair for a transmit or receive channel. This means you must adhere to the standard wiring color code.

At the following page on my web site are the pin numbers and color code for CAT-5E connections. A wire pair is defined by a solid color and an associated white with a colored strip of that color.
http://www.beta-a2.com/rj45_cable_assembly.html

A straight thru cable is wired as T-568A to T-568A or T-568B to T-568B. A cross-over cable is wired T-568A to T-568B. You should be using a modern Ethernet switch and you can wire straight thru because the modern switches automatically determine which pairs to use for send and receive.

100 mHz and below only the pair orange with white/orange, and the pair green with white/green are used for data transmission.

An Ethernet switch is not a mechanical switch but rather an electronic device that routes data from one cable to another. An Ethernet switch is a type of router, but more sophisticated than a router.

Under 100 M of cable you do not need a repeater (amplifier).

To reduce long runs of cable back to one central point you could use several Ethernet switches. In an industrial application with a number of CNC machines one might put a switch centered between maybe six machines. This might mean a 50 ft cable to each machine. In another six machine cluster maybe 50 ft from the first machines is another Ethernet switch to feed this second cluster with moderately short cables. Then each of these switches connect to a main switch thru cables not over 100 M, and in turn this central switch may connect to a central computer.

If there are not multiple hardwire ports on the cable modem, then go from the one port to a first switch. Even if there are multiple ports you may want to go to a first switch and do all your routing from there.

In my son's shop we have a 16 port switch connected to the DSL modem. From the switch an RF unit is connected that communicates with a terminal on a cart on the shop floor. All other connections are hardwired to various devices and computers. The RF terminal is on a movable cart with a car storage battery for power.

At home I have a DSL modem with four hardwire ports. One port goes to a Linksys RF unit. The RF unit sits on the basement floor to limit its range, yet I can communicate out to about 500 ft from the house. I seldom use the RF link. Mostly I work hardwired.

Some time when you have extra time drive around with a laptop and see how many unprotected RF modems you can find.

.

 

[Rampage_Rick]

Hardwire is faster for cheaper, in my experience.

And more reliable.
Here we've got approximately 120 runs of Ethernet at 100 and 1000 Mbps. All over CAT-5E. Few points of failure, though I had a PoE switch fail a few weeks back (looks like leaky capacitors) Total cost: $5k

We've also got a WiFi mesh that covers the site providing connectivity to about 100 units. There's roughly 25 radios, plus amplifiers and high-gain antennas. Bandwidth varies between 12-54 Mbps for the backhauls, up to 11 Mbps for the end users. Failures are routine. Right now I've got a failed amp (no connectivity on that node) and a failed backhaul radio (no connectivity for 2 other nodes) Total cost: $25k

 

[TOOL_5150]

yes, it will work perfectly. 328' is the limit.


that 1% you're unsure of is a lot of room for error.

i use switches instead of routers for this type of installation as A) you don't need one for this setup, ,B) they cost less.

Another thing to consider; if the modem is going to be installed next to a computer, you're going to need it hooked to that computer and to the network, so unless you have two ethernet jacks at that location, you'll need a switch next to the computer to connect the modem and computer, then use the ethernet at the wall to uplink to another switch feeding the rest of the house.




I'm pretty sure what the OP means is that the incoming phone line is going to a home network panel, then out to 12 locations.

090116-2111 EST

Mike Lang:

I have run tests with import CAT-5E cable and been able to operate to well over 350 ft before there was any error problem. You should have solid communication at 100 M (328.1 ft) with CAT-5E.

CAT-5E consists of four twisted pairs. These are twisted with a different twist pitch for each pair. Some cable made by Belden has the pairs mechanically bonded, probably by heat, to keep the pairs from shifting relative to one another. The non-equal twist pitches is to minimize cross talk.

For a transmit channel you must use one pair and for a receive channel a different pair. You can not mix one wire of one pair with a wire of a different pair for a transmit or receive channel. This means you must adhere to the standard wiring color code.

At the following page on my web site are the pin numbers and color code for CAT-5E connections. A wire pair is defined by a solid color and an associated white with a colored strip of that color.
http://www.beta-a2.com/rj45_cable_assembly.html

A straight thru cable is wired as T-568A to T-568A or T-568B to T-568B. A cross-over cable is wired T-568A to T-568B. You should be using a modern Ethernet switch and you can wire straight thru because the modern switches automatically determine which pairs to use for send and receive.

100 mHz and below only the pair orange with white/orange, and the pair green with white/green are used for data transmission.

An Ethernet switch is not a mechanical switch but rather an electronic device that routes data from one cable to another. An Ethernet switch is a type of router, but more sophisticated than a router.

Under 100 M of cable you do not need a repeater (amplifier).

To reduce long runs of cable back to one central point you could use several Ethernet switches. In an industrial application with a number of CNC machines one might put a switch centered between maybe six machines. This might mean a 50 ft cable to each machine. In another six machine cluster maybe 50 ft from the first machines is another Ethernet switch to feed this second cluster with moderately short cables. Then each of these switches connect to a main switch thru cables not over 100 M, and in turn this central switch may connect to a central computer.

If there are not multiple hardwire ports on the cable modem, then go from the one port to a first switch. Even if there are multiple ports you may want to go to a first switch and do all your routing from there.

In my son's shop we have a 16 port switch connected to the DSL modem. From the switch an RF unit is connected that communicates with a terminal on a cart on the shop floor. All other connections are hardwired to various devices and computers. The RF terminal is on a movable cart with a car storage battery for power.

At home I have a DSL modem with four hardwire ports. One port goes to a Linksys RF unit. The RF unit sits on the basement floor to limit its range, yet I can communicate out to about 500 ft from the house. I seldom use the RF link. Mostly I work hardwired.

Some time when you have extra time drive around with a laptop and see how many unprotected RF modems you can find.

.

The statements in red are false. A hub and a switch are similar, but a router is VERY different than a switch or hub.

A hub:
Takes data on a port and transmits it out to all the other ports, on a busy network this creates collisions.

A switch:
Takes data on a port, examines where the sender wanted the data to go, and only sends it out on the port going to its destination, thus reducing overhead traffic. Fewer collisions means the switch is ready to send more data, at a faster rate.

A router:
Takes data coming in, analizes it to see where its going and then checks to see if it is allowed to go any further. A router is a firewall between your small network and the outside world. A router looks at data not only at what address it is coming from, but the port as well. Think of a router as a gatekeeper who has a set of rules that it needs to abide by when anything passes through, inwards or outwards.


I was a network administrator for 6 years and I tried to keep the explanations simple to understand.

~Matt

 

[electricalperson]

I have a customer who had their house built about 10 years ago and they had RJ 45 jacks placed in most of the rooms. Now the cable company came in and installed a modem. The only connection they have at this point is wireless and the hard wired connection at the back of the modem. They want all of the house RJ-45 jacks to provide an internet connection. I've ran into a problem before with this not working very well on long runs over 75'. the house is about 5000 sq ft and I'm almost certain without even getting started that the internet signal will be too weak to provide any connection by the time it runs down stairs to a low voltage box then out to about 12 jacks 50 to 150 ft away. What can I use to boost this signal and provide the whole house with internet connections? What have you guys done to solve this problem?

if you have wireless you can use a signal booster to make the signal stronger in parts of the house far from the modem. thats what i have and it works fine. hardwired is also a good option. if the signal fails after 75 feet then theres a problem with the wire. is it cat5 or cat 3? are the jacks properly terminated in the back? no more than a half inch untwisted?

 

[hbiss]

I'm almost certain without even getting started that the internet signal will be too weak to provide any connection by the time it runs down stairs to a low voltage box then out to about 12 jacks

What do you want to bet that those were all wire nutted together?

-Hal

 

[tonyou812]

isnt it possible to pick up someones signal if your nearby?

 

[KentAT]

isnt it possible to pick up someones signal if your nearby?

Yep, it's done all the time, in apartment buildings, dorms, etc... sometimes on purpose and sometimes without authorization.

Picking up the signal and accessing their network are two different things.

Most new wireless users just plug in their wireless modem and get online, without reading and following the warning and instructions on securing your network from unauthorized users.

It used to be (might still be the norm) that wireless routers all came with default userIDs and passwords. A Linksys might be user: admin, pw= linksys, for example. After someone picks up the network on their WiFi, if it just identifies the network as "Linksys" because the installer did not change it, an anonymous user knows what to do to access it.

Pretty stupid not to read your instructions and care enough to secure your network as much as your equipment can do.

Kent

 

[brantmacga]

The statements in red are false. A hub and a switch are similar, but a router is VERY different than a switch or hub.

A hub:
Takes data on a port and transmits it out to all the other ports, on a busy network this creates collisions.

A switch:
Takes data on a port, examines where the sender wanted the data to go, and only sends it out on the port going to its destination, thus reducing overhead traffic. Fewer collisions means the switch is ready to send more data, at a faster rate.

A router:
Takes data coming in, analizes it to see where its going and then checks to see if it is allowed to go any further. A router is a firewall between your small network and the outside world. A router looks at data not only at what address it is coming from, but the port as well. Think of a router as a gatekeeper who has a set of rules that it needs to abide by when anything passes through, inwards or outwards.


I was a network administrator for 6 years and I tried to keep the explanations simple to understand.

~Matt

i know full well the difference;

the switch will distribute the internet perfectly. that's what i use in my own house. i use windows firewall protection, plus many modems now have built-in firewall protection, and even double as routers w/ as many as 8 ports. the modem at my office even has built-in wireless.

 

[Mike Lang]

What can I use to boost this signal and provide the whole house with internet connections? What have you guys done to solve this problem?

Not to be snotty but there should be no problem. I suggest that either you get educated on simple ethernet networking or refer the job to someone who knows what they are doing. Obviously this is not a job for you.

-Hal

You crack me up. Well since you know it all I must be fool for asking such questions. I don't run low voltage for internet connections much. As far as not being the job for me... I've learned far more complicated things than Cat5 I'll admit that my configuration was wrong because I haven't done this in years and was working from memory. Not being the job for me? hardly... I swapped 2 wires on my configuration and it's fine. Maybe I should have left the job for a low voltage pro like yourself, that fix was about all I could handle mentally. Also if you'd like me to educate yourself with an attitude on stuff you don't work with everyday I'll be more than happy.

 

[hbiss]

My point is if you don't know what you are doing you have no business doing it and especially charging a customer for it. By your own admission you have had problems before:

I've ran into a problem before with this not working very well on long runs over 75'. the house is about 5000 sq ft and I'm almost certain without even getting started that the internet signal will be too weak...

Yet you never took the time to learn why and continue to pass yourself off as someone able to handle this work. We complain about unlicensed handymen and trunk slammers doing our work because they don't know what they are doing. This behavior is no different.

Electrical credentials don't automatically give you knowledge but there is apparently something about them that makes some people think they can do everything.

I'm sorry if I have offended you or anybody else, but I've see this far too often. We are supposed to be professionals. Professionals know their limits.


-Hal

 

[George Stolz]

And with that said, let's not get so personal, fellas.

 

[brantmacga]

. We complain about unlicensed handymen and trunk slammers doing our work because they don't know what they are doing. This behavior is no different.

Electrical credentials don't automatically give you knowledge but there is apparently something about them that makes some people think they can do everything.

I'm sorry if I have offended you or anybody else, but I've see this far too often. We are supposed to be professionals. Professionals know their limits.


-Hal

you make it hard to disagree with you sometimes, hal. :wink:

 

[shocky-boy]

Are your costumer's cables run in a star topology or daisy-chained?
if in star, then you should be fine by picking up all of the existing cat5s (10 years ago there was no such a thing as cat5e) at the patch panel where they were punched down. I always advise my costumers to have every jack active, you would then have to provide a patch cable from the internet switch to each of the cat5s at the patch panel.

 

[MR2Di4]

In reading this thread I am amazed at the amount of confusion present concerning "Internet" in houses.

Only the ISP's link to the modem via the PSTN/Cable networks is what constitutes an "Internet" connection, via broadband. Signalling for Internet traffic is already handled and decoded by the modem after traveling across miles of cable. If there is an issue at the modem (ie. "weak signal") it can be detected and addressed by your ISP/Telco/Cable company.

After the modem, you are usually dealing with an Ethernet Network, which has a whole different set of requirements. Putting Ethernet throughout a house can be accomplished in a number of ways using adapters attached to the 120VAC wiring through outlets, 75 Ohm Coax wiring using cable TV jacks, Wireless 802.11b/g/n Networking and of course good 'ol copper CAT5. I've used all of them with mixed results, with the most reliable being CAT5.

Properly installed, CAT5 will carry 10/100BaseT Full Duplex Twisted-Pair Ethernet, the most common type, for 300'. If it doesn't, either your equipment is woefully under spec or faulty OR you have a wiring issue in either the jacks or wiring. To find faults a CAT5 cable tester, and knowing how to use it, is invaluable. I use a Fluke CableIQ and although it's somewhat basic featurewise, it is ideal for home installers.

 

[hbiss]

In reading this thread I am amazed at the amount of confusion present concerning "Internet" in houses.

I'm not.

Like you say it's not "whole house internet" or internet wiring. You are installing a network that connects the computers together which allows for much more than just providing internet access.

-Hal