"Inverter Duty Motor"

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We are adding an air handling unit and got a question from the vendor that I hadn't seen before. He asked since the motor will be fed from a VFD, do they need to provide an inverter duty motor?

Could anyone shed some light as to what is an "inverter duty motor"?
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

if the speed of the motor being controlled by the vfd is within 2.5-7.5% of 60 hz, you might be ok.

a standard motor will run much hotter on an inverter and may not hold up to the application.

if the frequency of the motor changes more than that, you will need a inverter duty motor.

an inverter duty motor is specifically designed for various speeds. it is a beefier motor than the standard motor and can handle various speeds.

the inverter needs to be sized to the application and duty factor.

hope this helps.

[ October 24, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: pwhite ]
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

Steve,

Inverter duty motors have a higher insulation rating and typically more paper between the phase windings in addition to what pwhite indicated in generally being a beefer motor. I do strongly recommend looking at several motor manufactures and specifically checking line length limitations. This is the distance you can run your motor wiring without having to add line or load reactors. One word of caution is not to confuse Premium efficiency with inverter duty. I have applied premium efficiency motors on VFD's with very short motor wiring runs, but they are still not inverter duty rated. Feel free to drop me an e-mail if you would like some of my opinions on motor manufacturers.

Tony
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

Thanks for the information! In our case, we are adding a turbo blower by Spencer. The client is absolutely set on Yaskawa VFDs. The motor will be selected by Spencer, and we don't have much input into the manufacturer they utilize.

We spoke with the Yaskawa rep, and he reiterated a lot of the information Tony presented. We talked a lot about motor lead length, and inverter rated motors versus other offerings by motor manufacturers. We also called up Baldor (seemed like a good typical manufacturer to call), and got pretty much the same information.

I was curious, P White gave some pretty specific guidelines
if the speed of the motor being controlled by the vfd is within 2.5-7.5% of 60 hz, you might be ok.
Not disputing the figures, but I was wondering where you got them from.

Thanks for all the input!
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

I was always under the impression, when the speed is slower than normal, as may be the case on a VFD, that internal heat is not disapated by the fan of the motor. During a class on the subject, the instructor described situations where motors had their own separate but internal cooling fans that would work to keep the motor operating properly. What I took away from this was between the electrical and thermal punishment that the windings go through, you had better be sre you had chosen the correct motor for the application.
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

stevebrown,
i used the 7.5% because most standard motors are typically rated for 50/60 hz. i don't like to go above the 7.5% mark because they usually fail in 6 months-1 yr. we have used hundreds of inverters and so i am also using personal expecience. a class i took also gave this recommendation.

i would check with the yaskawa rep to see if the inverter being used was rated standard duty or heavy duty. the heavy duty rating is for frequent on/off applications.
hope this helps.

[ October 24, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: pwhite ]
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

I specify inverter duty motors with each VFD application. I have gotten mixed messages as to how long is long, when considering reflective wave problems on distances exceeding 20' between the VFD and motor. Some say with an inverter duty motor, I shouldn't worry about reflected wave problems until I get to 150' between the VFD and motor. Does anyone know of definitive research as to when long leads are too long?
 
Re: "Inverter Duty Motor"

There are two issues with motors on VFDs
Cooling at low speeds, typically below 30 hz
Better magnet wire to withstand the higher voltages generated by VFD's. Some motors are now invertor duty ready, which means it has better windings. That same motor may not have enough cooling when it runs slower. You need to check with the motor mfg.
Also if you can ajust the VFD carrier frequency change it as low as possible. This will reduce the ringwave, at the expense of more radiated sound. I set mine at 2 khz, factory is 8 khz.

[ October 24, 2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: tom baker ]
 
Most manufacturers use a special magnet wire in their motors for people just like you. It's brand name "Inverter Spike Resistant wire' Baldor. But it's just an extra coating material that prevents pin holes in the magnet wire. The PWM frequency or switching frequency is adjustable in the VFD parameter schedule. This should be set as low as possible without bothersome audible noise. The frequency output on VFD's is conducive to this issue of premature magnet wire failure. Now, the motor manufacturer is going to push the inverter duty motor. Inverter duty motors are of two types. 1) fan cooled + larger frame demensions for heat dissapation 2) forced blower with normal frame demensions. The slower the speed the hotter the motor will run. I agree at higher speeds this problem is less of an issue. But the motors insulation rating is of importance. Take a look in a motor catalog and you will find many standard duty motors are rated for inverter duty at certain speeds. It's because of the (special) magnet wire used. If you plan to operate these motors at slow speeds, go with the inverter motor. I personally like the forced blower, as it (blower) will run at full speed regardless of how fast or slow the motors is running. This should be wired seperately from the motor circuit. Any motor manufacturer will tell you the minimum speed and how to stay within their warranty.
 
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Marathon motors has done a lot of research (published) on motor matching with load and drive. Not to say the others havn't but they have some guys over there that really are knowledgable on this stuff.

Here is some info I put together that some of you might find useful:


Potential Motor Damage from VFDs

When using VFDs for motor control, attention must be given when specifying the motor and designing the installation. The rapid switching of modern drives creates transient voltage spikes that can shoot pinholes in the insulation of the motor causing short circuits and premature failure of the motor. The damage to the motor insulation typically occurs in the first turn near the lamination stack.

In addition, the high switching frequency currents of the inverter can damage bearings. An effect called Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) occurs when the currents find a path to ground over the surface of the bearings, causing a metal transfer between the bearing and race to take place.

The damage takes place over varying periods of time, usually months, and will be first noticed by louder then normal running noise, or by vibration monitoring, when utilized. Damaged bearing(s) should be replaced immediately, before total destruction of the bearing occurs, causing further damage and loss of production.

Reflected Voltage and Heating: Due to standing waves, part of the inverter output is reflected back from the motor to the inverter. Voltage from the inverter pulse and the reflected wave combine, thereby increasing the voltage at the motor. At long distances, a 460V rated motor could see 2000V.

Waves not sinusoidal are converted to heat in the motor windings causing burnout of the motor. This was more prevalent on 6-step inverters but is still possible using PWM types.

Common Mode Current: This source of bearing current is due to the switching that occurs between phases, the neutral cannot be instantaneously cancelled out like in a pure sine wave, creating a potential difference between inverter output and ground. The stray currents created by the potential difference cause current to flow through motor cable and windings.

Shaft Earthing Current: Motors rated around 125 Hp and larger typically induce high frequency currents into the shaft simply due to asymmetrical flux distribution in the motor. The high frequency voltage pulses from the inverter, also produces current that flows through the motor leakage capacitances of the windings to ground. Together an induced voltage between shaft ends occurs. If the induced voltage is high enough to overcome the bearing oil impedance, a circulating type of high frequency bearing current occurs. When the leakage current returns to the inverter through ground, and the motor shaft is grounded through the driven equipment, part of the leakage current can flow through the driven equipment bearings and shaft due to poor stator grounding.

In smaller motors, the stray capacitance is small enough that the internal division of common mode voltage is divided, and high enough that high frequency current pulses are created.

Preventing Damage: To reduce the probability of damage to the motor, the specification must clearly indicate it shall be inverter duty rated. This will help the manufacturer to select the proper motor for the application. The motor should utilize a class H insulation, but limit it to a B temperature rise, the service factor should always be at least 1.15 and the motor should not be allowed to operate at full load.

Additionally, there are three methods of affecting the bearing currents; proper cabling and grounding system, breaking the bearing current loops, and damping the high frequency common mode current.

Cable: Only symmetrical multi-conductor cable should be utilized to help avoid bearing currents at fundamental frequencies. Either three individual phase ground conductors should be spaced symmetrically around the three conductor leads, or an earth conductor should surround all three of the phase conductors. The cable should also have a continuous shield made of copper or aluminum, and connections at both ends need to utilize 360o terminations. Cable length should be kept to an absolute minimum, less than 15 feet is preferred.

Bonding and Grounding: High frequency bonding connections should be installed at known ground reference points. The bonding should be done using flat braided copper straps, 50-100mm in width. Shaft grounding may also be optional from manufacturer, but typically not for motors smaller then 10 Hp. It is accomplished by using a brush that rides on the shaft that shorts the rotor voltage to ground.

Breaking Loop: The following methods will help ensure ground current will not flow:
? Insulate the non-drive end bearing
? Insulate the shaft from the frame
? Provide insulated coupling between the motor and driven equipment.

Dampening: Provide impedance in the common mode loop by installing dedicated filters. Load reactors add inductance to the line between the inverter and the motor. Low pass filters are a combination of inductance, resistance, and capacitance and should be used on very long runs of cable, and tuned to the natural frequency of the wire. Adding these devices is especially important where it is not physically possible to install the inverter near enough to the motor.
 
Marathon is an excellent source for this type of information. Since Marathon does not manufactor drives, I would look at motor and drive manufacturers for further info. Baldor, Weg, TECO, Leeson ect....
 
Thanks!!

Thanks!!

kingpb,

Thanks for that information!! I have wondered why inverter rated construction was needed.

I have used fractional horsepower conventional motors (1/4 hp) on film projectors with inverters with no ill effects (other than some audible noise) despite not using shielded cable to the motor, etc.

I wonder if the negative effects are not as severe in my application?
 
The other side of the coin is this.

Literally thousands of existing non VFD 'rated' motors are retrofitted with VFDs without any problems. This is after years of service, not days.

I am not suggesting that in a new install specifying a VFD rated motor is not prudent, I am saying that if your contemplating a retrofit situation do not concern yourself with the lack of VFD rating on the existing motor. Install the VFD and then if the motor has an issue change it out with a rated one.

I have also been involved on heavily engineered jobs that used VFD rated motors and still had EDM issues causing ruined bearings. As there where four 500 HP motors the cost of bearing replacement was not cheap.

Reading the info from a manufacturer can be interesting bit one should never forget that they fund those papers for marketing reasons more than anything else.

Sometimes it is good to talk to the actual end users to see what is really happening in the field. :)
 
Steve,
The client is absolutely set on Yaskawa VFDs
I have installed a large number of these drives (Yaskawa and its predecessor, Magnetek) in an industrial application on standard motors without line or load reactors or any other special precautions, and we have not experienced any motor failure problems. These motors range in size from 1/2 hp to 500 hp. About 90% would be less than 15 hp. In most cases, we exceed the maximum permitted footage of motor leads before we even get the conduit out of the MCC room. Our minimum length would be about 125', average about 250' and the longest is over 600'. The motor leads are standard THWN conductors in rigid conduit and if the motor leads are #4 or smaller the #14, 120 volt control conductors will be installed in the same raceway. I know that there have been damage issues, but I don't think that they are that common. It appears that most of the instructions are for CYA purposes, so if you are responsible to make it work and warrantee it, then you should follow the manufactures instructions.
Don
 
Don, Your power must be very good. Line and load reactors are not always needed. But I install a line reactor every time. I have found that many customers will complain about VFD nuisance trips. Trips that happen so fast that the VFD does not even display the fault. They reset/restart the VFD and the next day it happens again. A very good example is when a power correction cap switches. One customer said his machine would trip out only in the afternoons during the summer. I had the customer to log the time and date of every trip. Guess what? I contacted the power company and verified the caps switched at the exact time. A simple 3% imp. line reactor solved the problem.
 
You need better insulation on a VFD fed motor even it runs at 60 Hz all the time.

The issue with frequency is too fold. One, if the motor runs too slow on a fan cooled motor, the fan will not pull enough air to adequately cool the motor. If the motor runs above base speed, the rotating parts are subject to additional stresses that may need to be accounted for.

The inverter does not care one whit about any duty factor, and should be sized to the motor, maybe even slightly over sized to reduce the potential of overheating of the VFD in warmer areas.

pwhite said:
if the speed of the motor being controlled by the vfd is within 2.5-7.5% of 60 hz, you might be ok.

a standard motor will run much hotter on an inverter and may not hold up to the application.

if the frequency of the motor changes more than that, you will need a inverter duty motor.

an inverter duty motor is specifically designed for various speeds. it is a beefier motor than the standard motor and can handle various speeds.

the inverter needs to be sized to the application and duty factor.

hope this helps.

[ October 24, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: pwhite ]
 
John Valdes said:
Don, Your power must be very good. Line and load reactors are not always needed. But I install a line reactor every time. I have found that many customers will complain about VFD nuisance trips. Trips that happen so fast that the VFD does not even display the fault. They reset/restart the VFD and the next day it happens again. A very good example is when a power correction cap switches. One customer said his machine would trip out only in the afternoons during the summer. I had the customer to log the time and date of every trip. Guess what? I contacted the power company and verified the caps switched at the exact time. A simple 3% imp. line reactor solved the problem.

Some drives will trip if the line voltage drops. Most have a parameter that can be set for a certain period of ride through on voltage drop/loss.
 
iwire said:
How about we say it is desirable but not specifically necessary?

I would tend to agree that in a retrofit situation you could get by w/o changing the motor out in a lot of cases. The motor will eventually wear out anyway and can be replaced or rewound then.

But, with new installations, it is just better to get the right motor, and the cost adder is usually not especially significant.
 
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