Irreversible connections for ufer

[mooreaaryan]

Are there other way to maker a connections that is irreversible beside a crimp or exothermic weld. A super intendent of mine is saying he used a "fence post style connection" and since it was being buried in concrete it was irreversible. Ive only done and seen crimping and exothermic welding but I know a lot of connection are stamped DB/ Burial Rated etc i just dont know if that qualifies as irreversible. if you know of a product that meets reqs let me know please thanks again

 

[LarryFine]

To me, an irreversible connection is one that has to be destroyed to remove. It doesn't loosen with the tool it tightens with.

 

[infinity]

Explain further what you mean by irreversible connection? The CEE can be two parts, one the actual electrode and two the connection of the GEC to the electrode. Are you asking about splicing the GEC or the connection point to the electrode?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Only the connections in the grounding electrode conductor itself must be irreversible. That is not a requirement for the connection of the GEC to the re-bar, or any other electrode.

 

[romex jockey]

One would think simply being buried in tons of concrete would be a qualifier....~RJ~

 

[jaggedben]

I have no idea what a 'fence post style' connection is, but I can agree with the reasoning that if it is encased in the concrete then it's irreversible. That would allow lots of connectors that would not be allowed if exposed (Kerny bolt, for example), although I think they would have to be something direct burial rated because of the moisture in the concrete.

I do not know of anything besides crimps or exothermic weld that would qualify if exposed.

 

[infinity]

I have no idea what a 'fence post style' connection is, but I can agree with the reasoning that if it is encased in the concrete then it's irreversible. That would allow lots of connectors that would not be allowed if exposed (Kerny bolt, for example), although I think they would have to be something direct burial rated because of the moisture in the concrete.

I do not know of anything besides crimps or exothermic weld that would qualify if exposed.

Are you saying that if the GEC connection to the CEE is exposed, like a piece of rebar stubbed up into a wall, that an irreversible connection is required?

 

[hornetd]

Are you saying that if the GEC connection to the CEE is exposed, like a piece of rebar stubbed up into a wall, that an irreversible connection is required?

The stubbed up rebar is part of the Grounding Electrode. The connection would connect the Grounding Electrode Conductor to that Electrode. I know of no requirement that the connection of the GEC to a Grounding Electrode of any type has to be irreversible.

 

[Jerramundi]

The only time I've ever heard of this, and I just recently encountered it when doing a Common GEC for one of the first times, is if your extending the GEC (i.e. splicing onto it to make it longer).

Acceptable irreversible methods I'm aware of are (1) the crimp and (2) exothermic weld. I looked into the crimping tool and it is mighty expensive. Only worth it if your doing this on a regular basis.

 

[Jerramundi]

Check out 250.64(C)(1-4)... but again, as far as I'm aware, this is only about keeping the GEC continuous, NOT about the connection of the GEC to the GE.

 

[Fred B]

...... A super intendent of mine is saying he used a "fence post style connection" .........

Sorry, I'm going to ask a stupid question, what is a "fence post style connection"?

 

[Jerramundi]

Sorry, I'm going to ask a stupid question, what is a "fence post style connection"?

I was wondering the same. I'm guessing that's NOT the "official" terminology, but just a reference to grounding a fence post, which I believe is something like this...

GAR1726, Mechanical Grounding Connector, Cable to Rod or Pipe | GAR1726 | Burndy

Mechanical Grounding Connector, Cable to Rod or Pipe, 4 AWG (Sol)-2/0 AWG (Str), 1-1/2" Pipe, 1-5/8"-1-7/8" Rod, Bright Dipped.

www.hubbell.com

 

[jaggedben]

Are you saying that if the GEC connection to the CEE is exposed, like a piece of rebar stubbed up into a wall, that an irreversible connection is required?

No.

I was imagining a situation where someone wants to extend the GEC.

 

[mooreaaryan]

Are you saying that if the GEC connection to the CEE is exposed, like a piece of rebar stubbed up into a wall, that an irreversible connection is required?

No, we will being pouring the pad over the connection point, the prints are asking for the connection of the ground grid to the rebar to be irreversible my question is basically if i use a bolt together connector to make these connections are they considered irreversible since they will be concreted in place

 

[mooreaaryan]

One would think simply being buried in tons of concrete would be a qualifier....~RJ~

this is my line of think also, the connection is as permanent as long as the concrete is permanent

 

[mooreaaryan]

Explain further what you mean by irreversible connection? The CEE can be two parts, one the actual electrode and two the connection of the GEC to the electrode. Are you asking about splicing the GEC or the connection point to the electrode?

connection point to the electrode

 

[jaggedben]

I think you've only got the dictionary to go on, and deciding whether it's sufficient to meet the spirit of the requirement or whether you want to quibble over whether the 'splice' needs to be irreversible itself without the concrete (which is not part of the splice).

Why not ask the person who drew the plans? It appears to me you are dealing with a job spec and not a code requirement.

 

[mooreaaryan]

the attached

 

[Jerramundi]

the attached

As far as I'm aware.. and I'm mostly a residential sparky with some commercial experience.. your diagram has correctly identified the only point that an "irreversible" connection is required by code... but this "irreversible connection" is only (1) ONE option of (4) FOUR as detailed by 250.64(C)(1-4) Continuous which requires the GEC be installed in one continuous length.

250.64(C)(1) Splicing of the wire-type grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.

There are (3) three other options that satisfy the requirement of the GEC being continuous.

250.64(C)(2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.
250.64(C)(3) Bolted, riveted, or welded connections of structural metal frames of buildings or structures.
250.64(C)(4) Threaded, welded, brazed, soldered, or bolted-flange connections of metal water piping.

The other (uppermost) connection point that you're asking about is not required to be "irreversible" because the rebar is an electrode, not the grounding electrode conductor.

 

[infinity]

the attached

In viewing your attachment the connection to the rebar does not have to be irreversible. If it's within the concrete it has to be with a clamp rated for a connection within the concrete.

250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes. The grounding or bonding conductor shall be connected to the grounding electrode by exothermic welding, listed lugs, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connections depending on solder shall not be used. Ground clamps shall be listed for the materials of the grounding electrode and the grounding electrode conductor and, where used on pipe, rod, or other buried electrodes, shall also be listed for direct soil burial or concrete encasement. Not more than one conductor shall be connected to the grounding electrode by a single clamp or fitting unless the clamp or fitting is listed for multiple conductors. One of the following methods shall be used:
(1) A pipe fitting, pipe plug, or other approved device screwed into a pipe or pipe fitting
(2) A listed bolted clamp of cast bronze or brass, or plain or malleable iron
(3) For indoor communications purposes only, a listed sheet metal strap-type ground clamp having a rigid metal base
that seats on the electrode and having a strap of such material and dimensions that it is not likely to stretch during or after installation
(4) An equally substantial approved means