Irrigation pump in lake

Wow! Thank you for all the input. I haven't installed anything yet so I have the option of a larger conduit and pulling #8's if that would make a difference? I realize it doesn't make that much of a difference because I only have the #12 conductor feeding it. I was planning on pulling extra conductors down to the lake anyway just for future use. If I just try the 2 pole GFCI breaker first and it doesn't workout, would the next thing to try be the autotransformer?
 
Would it be possible to use a spa disconnect and wire it 240v and install the GFCI breaker in it? Obviously there wouldn't be a neutral but if it's only used for the 240v irrigation pump would this be code compliant?
 
dekeSC said:
Would it be possible to use a spa disconnect and wire it 240v and install the GFCI breaker in it?
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The issue is that most (all?) GFCI breakers require a neutral on their line side, even if the load doesn't require a neutral. So this would only work if you can find a 2-pole GFCI breaker that doesn't require a neutral on the line side.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
The issue is that most (all?) GFCI breakers require a neutral on their line side, even if the load doesn't require a neutral. So this would only work if you can find a 2-pole GFCI breaker that doesn't require a neutral on the line side.

Cheers, Wayne
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Ahhhh, well I'll start researching. Thank you
 
wwhitney said:
The issue is that most (all?) GFCI breakers require a neutral on their line side, even if the load doesn't require a neutral. So this would only work if you can find a 2-pole GFCI breaker that doesn't require a neutral on the line side.

Cheers, Wayne
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I wonder is that is just to power the electronics in the breaker?
 
tortuga said:
I wonder is that is just to power the electronics in the breaker?
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Yes. There are a few (Square D QO) that do not need the neutral to power their internal electronics. You have to check.

But that is ONLY on the line side, the load side DOES NOT CARE unless you have 120V loads tapped off of the 240V circuit inside of the load device. On a pond pump, that is doubtful.
 
wwhitney said:
Seems to be prohibited by 2017 NEC 215.11 / 210.9.

Cheers, Wayne
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I was thinking about those provisions, and especially 215.11 for feeders when I mentioned possible issues of meeting inspection requirements.
Even though the autotransformer would not feed current to any branch circuits, but only to internal circuitry of the GFCI breaker, it is located between the power source and "the final branch circuit overcurrent device".

It would be interesting to measure how much current a GFCI breaker draws on the neutral connection. I think the maximum current would be a short-lived pulse when an SCR fires to drive a solenoid to trip the breaker
 
Jraef said:
Yes. There are a few (Square D QO) that do not need the neutral to power their internal electronics. You have to check.

But that is ONLY on the line side, the load side DOES NOT CARE unless you have 120V loads tapped off of the 240V circuit inside of the load device. On a pond pump, that is doubtful.
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So in theory I could add a Square D QO spa disconnect or similar with one of those GFCI circuit breakers at the location of the pump and be good to go?
 
Jraef said:
Yes. There are a few (Square D QO) that do not need the neutral to power their internal electronics. You have to check.
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Oh, what model(s) of QO breakers? QO260GFCI, for example, has no load neutral terminal, but still has a neutral pigtail, so I infer it still requires 120V for its GFCI electronics.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I always thought the neutral in a 2-GFCI was using the neutral for sensing something? volts to ground? Thats exceedingly stupid if its just for electronics. Has anyone cracked on open?
 
pipe_bender said:
I always thought the neutral in a 2-GFCI was using the neutral for sensing something? volts to ground? Thats exceedingly stupid if its just for electronics. Has anyone cracked on open?
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It is usually only for the test circuit. The sensing and tripping circuits are often self powered.
 
Sberry said:
When did gfci come in resi? Seems to me I have seen it in 70s,,, about 76 as breaker added to mobile for kitchen circuit. I remember early on the continuous talk a (and some bitchin) about the requirements from water etc.
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It primarily started out in residential applications AFAIK. Possibly was required for swimming pool applications first? But guessing both about same time. Bathrooms was where it was first required. You didn't see much more than GFCI's in bathrooms until into the 80's.
 
Jraef said:
Yes, but it’s been a while now since the “w/G” was dropped because they all need a ground wire now.
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especially with 14 and 12 AWG cables.

Though there still was a time into the 90's when you did not need EGC at switch locations if you did not have a metal plate, and you also could purchase switches with or without a ground terminal back then.

Until 96 code started requiring EGC to ranges and dryers we used a lot of 10-3 and 8-3 with no EGC. If running 50 amp range circuit we generally used SE cable for some reason, maybe it cost less at the time? IDK, I wasn't involved with purchasing back then, just telling the boss if we needed something was closest I came to purchasing.
 
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