Is a GFI required

Status
Not open for further replies.
tom baker said:
The kitchen GFCI requirement is for receptacles serving the counter tops. A single recp is often used so it can be on its own circuit.
Click to expand...

Thats not how i read 210.8, 2008 and 2011 says all kitchen counter top receptacles are to be GFCI protected, no exceptions on single receptacles

also states all receptalces in unfinished basements, no exceptions for sump pits

if its a dedicated circuit in areas where GFCI protection is required just a few exceptions on those, fire or burglary, deicing equipment, couple more can't rem now
 
Last edited:
single plug

single plug

if the basement was unfinished and you didnt want the sumppump to be on a gfi could you use a single rec
 
There is an exception where you can plug the sump into a single recept, but there would have to be a GFI near the single recept so the temptation to unplug the sump to use that recept would be reduced.
 
templdl said:
For what GFCIs cost you bet I would install one in a blink of an eye. But I would be concerned about is nuisance tripping because of the motor load and then the crock fills up an floods the basement.
I'm certainly not trying to side step the use of GFCIs.
Click to expand...

A motor in good condition does not trip a GFCI.
 
stickboy1375 said:
The technology is a simple amprobe, it monitors amperage entering and exiting the circuit, nothing more... it really is that simple... I don't buy the radio story at all! and the hair clippers obviously had an internal issue...
Click to expand...

Radio transmitters operated to close to any electronics can cause issues. Try keying up a walkie talkie right in front of a GFCI
 
templdl said:
I beg to differ. With some loads such as motors it is possible to have a line to neutral imbalance because of the inductive properties of motor even though I would defy you to find a ground issue. Remember, it only has to be instantaneous. It will also be noted that you will never see a GFCI on larger motors. This issue came it a a trade show where the shop officials wanted displays of GFCI which up front makes sense. But, with motors it doesn't work that way. aIt is very easy to fool a device with a 5ma sensitivity.
Yes, lets reeducate ourselves on how little 5ma is or .005a. A 30ma "equipment protection" ground fault device can also nuisance trip when applied of some loads. It would be great if they could be used on all loads but that's not the real world. That's why you don't see more of them used as one would expect.
Click to expand...

We GFCI everything on construction sites and strangely all the high in rush motor loads work fine.

GFCIs are required for 120 volt 15 and 20 amp circuits that means you will not need to protect large motors.
 
liquidtite said:
if the basement was unfinished and you didnt want the sumppump to be on a gfi could you use a single rec
Click to expand...

K_Buz said:
There is an exception where you can plug the sump into a single recept, but there would have to be a GFI near the single recept so the temptation to unplug the sump to use that recept would be reduced.
Click to expand...

Neither one of these posts is true unless you are still under the 2005 NEC
 
iwire said:
Radio transmitters operated to close to any electronics can cause issues. Try keying up a walkie talkie right in front of a GFCI
Click to expand...

So you're suggesting that this would be possible .... so if a WiFi modem was plugged into a GFCI receptacle could cause it to react?

interesting
 
I'm really not suggesting anything, I'm simply stating that I've seen GFI's trip for other reasons than a ground-fault. I will attempt to recreate this if I can get ahold of one of their 2-way radios.
 
K_Buz said:
I'm really not suggesting anything, I'm simply stating that I've seen GFI's trip for other reasons than a ground-fault. I will attempt to recreate this if I can get ahold of one of their 2-way radios.
Click to expand...

iwire seems to agree with you, thats why im asking about modems

Add Wireless
 
Last edited:
Gac66610 said:
So you're suggesting that this would be possible .... so if a WiFi modem was plugged into a GFCI receptacle could cause it to react?

interesting
Click to expand...

I really do not know the details, when I have seen problems first hand has been when I have keyed up a walkie talkie right in front of an control board for an energy management systems and it went nuts.

I am pretty sure MDshunk reported tripping a panel full of GFCIs with a walkie talkie while standing directly in front of the panel.

My impression is it takes some higher than normal power to have problems so I doubt a wifi modem would be an issue unless maybe it was right at the unit.
 
iwire said:
We GFCI everything on construction sites and strangely all the high in rush motor loads work fine.

GFCIs are required for 120 volt 15 and 20 amp circuits that means you will not need to protect large motors.
Click to expand...

It is to be noted that the intent of GFCIs is to protect people. If it does trip, it either tripped because of line to ground current that exceeds 5ma of because of some weird phenomena of the load that has the ability to emulate an imbalance between the line and neutral which often results in nuisance tripping.
GFCIs really don?t protect motors as don?t MCPs in a combination motor starter. The motor has failed to some degree. The GFCI protects you from a potential electric shock from a motor failure and Westinghouse?s original intent when developing the MCP was to prevent a catastrophic motor failure resulting in a fire.
I remember ona couple of occassions where I got a call from someone in my company who was setting up a trade show where they needed 480Y/277 power for a display and were being asked if they were providing ground fault protection for it.
I agree with regarding the high inrush motor loads and I personally am intrigued by that fact that there aren?t more nuisance tripping issues with GFCIs with their .005a sensitivity due to an emulated imbalance because of the dynamics of some types of loads. And they can sell these GFCI outlets of dirt cheep.
 
templdl said:
It is to be noted that the intent of GFCIs is to protect people.
Click to expand...

No one has said otherwise, we are talking about a motor load that is plugged into a receptacle that people can use. We are not protecting the motor we are protecting the people using equipment supplied from that recptacle.

If it does trip, it either tripped because of line to ground current that exceeds 5ma of because of some weird phenomena of the load that has the ability to emulate an imbalance between the line and neutral which often results in nuisance tripping.
Click to expand...

Weird phenomena tripping GFCIs is very rare, we install GFCIs in many locations at this point and almost all tripping can be traced back to a repairable cause.


GFCIs really don?t protect motors as don?t MCPs in a combination motor starter.
Click to expand...

No one has said the GFCI will protect the motor. :)
 
iwire said:
...

My impression is it takes some higher than normal power to have problems so I doubt a wifi modem would be an issue unless maybe it was right at the unit.
Click to expand...

for some unknown reason, maybe to get it more centrally located, the modem was plugged into a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen.
dont know if you rem my thread on GFCI tripping kitchen thought it was coffee pot, anyway...
 
single receptacle

single receptacle

I thought for things like sump pumps and washing machines you could install a single receptacle instead of a gfi, or break the tab off a duplex.
 
liquidtite said:
if the basement was unfinished and you didnt want the sumppump to be on a gfi could you use a single rec
Click to expand...

Yes in New Jersey you can still do that since the State has kept the exception as part of the code. Anywhere under the wording of the later versions of the NEC cannot.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top