Is a kitchen without a countertop and without countertop receptacles allowed per 2017 NEC?

[rc/retired]

which the architect says is for "accessibility requirements" and therefore cannot be a small cabinet with a countertop.

View attachment 2560803

That's hard for me to believe. There are stairs going to the units. Is there an elevator?
The door to the bathroom has the lav right next to the door. What's the difference?
As far as accessibility goes, the stove and sink have plenty of access.
The stove would need front controls.
Unless Hawaii has weird accessibility codes, the architect's comment makes no sense to me.

Ron

 

[kwired]

Thanks for all the action on this post! To address some of the comments, it might be possible to prep food on top of the stove (say you had a glass top stove) but then you'd have to put said food into the refrigerator or on a table somewhere else when you start using the stove. Regarding CA code, I'm not in CA but in HI. Regarding request to see the layout, please see excerpt attached showing the two kitchens in question. Note there seems to be a space by the door opening before the stove, which the architect says is for "accessibility requirements" and therefore cannot be a small cabinet with a countertop.

View attachment 2560803

Before even asking where to do food preparation where does one put their non refrigerated foods, dishes, etc?

 

[dissonant]

Before even asking where to do food preparation where does one put their non refrigerated foods, dishes, etc?

Well, there is a small upper cabinet about the stove and sink. But with no base cabinets, there is also no place to store any pots, pans, bakeware, silverware or cooking utensils... unless you use the oven for that storage.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Thank you for posting the pic of the drawing.
I see why you ask. Does the electrical drawing show anything.

 

[dissonant]

Thank you for posting the pic of the drawing.
I see why you ask. Does the electrical drawing show anything.

I'm doing the electrical design which is why I'm asking what is required by code and what others would do in my position. I do like the suggestion of just having a few counter height receptacles so someone could push a table up against the wall but that still seems unsatisfactory.

I'm trying to get clarification from the architect on what he expects for this kitchen without base cabinets or countertops. I've already suggested instead of a hood over the stove to substitute a microwave hood so that would the units would have at least one small appliance that they won't have to find counterspace for. This is going to be the 3rd time he's asked for a design change, so I want to make sure that this layout is finalized before I start working on it again.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Thanks for all the action on this post! To address some of the comments, it might be possible to prep food on top of the stove (say you had a glass top stove) but then you'd have to put said food into the refrigerator or on a table somewhere else when you start using the stove. Regarding CA code, I'm not in CA but in HI. Regarding request to see the layout, please see excerpt attached showing the two kitchens in question. Note there seems to be a space by the door opening before the stove, which the architect says is for "accessibility requirements" and therefore cannot be a small cabinet with a countertop.

View attachment 2560803

From the 2018 Hawaii code.
That Liv/Kit seems too small also

 

[Fred B]

Are these units really perminant residential or what they appear to be is designed as an extended stay hotel suite for 1 week to 1 month rentals?
It might actually fall under requirements for hotels or guest suites. If it is then code in 210.60(A) and (B) apply and refer to 210.52(A),(D) being applicable. If perminant provisions for cooking are present then all of 210.52 are applicable. (NEC 2017)

If this is not an extended stay I would be hard pressed to think I could ever get such a unit rented out without at least a minimum countertop space, and a very poor design.

 

[retirede]

I lived in a studio apartment in Chicago that was even worse. It was an old hotel that was transformed into apartments. They basically took the hotel rooms and installed a small refrigerator and range. Food prep was carried out on a table. I had to wash dishes in the bathroom sink.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Here is I would look at it.
Since it's an apartment I would think it would be considered multifamily dwelling. Even though there appears to be no counter top area for receptacles to be place and your in the design stage. I would factor in those required circuits. Now where the outlets go is another matter.
Looking at the drawing it appears you have an ADA unit. I would ask for some info on appliances. In that case usually there is a range hood over the stove and a counter top microwave provision. The switches for the range hood need to meet reach range requirements.
In the other units it appears there is a microwave / combo or different cabinet configuration. I would also read on what can be tied to those required circuits as well and what they can serve. I would also think you are installing a panel in each unit.
In this case a trip with plans to local AHJ may be warranted.
I would also recommend a engineer be involved if required for your area.
Where I'm from one and two family dewelling do not require a stamped set of plans however multifamily does.

I did see the turn circle for the bath room on what appeared to be the ADA unit. The door looked small. No scale so just a guess. I would also assume that is the first floor and the stairs lead up to other units. Some areas require additional items for an ADA units.

 

[kwired]

Here is I would look at it.
Since it's an apartment I would think it would be considered multifamily dwelling. Even though there appears to be no counter top area for receptacles to be place and your in the design stage. I would factor in those required circuits. Now where the outlets go is another matter.
Looking at the drawing it appears you have an ADA unit. I would ask for some info on appliances. In that case usually there is a range hood over the stove and a counter top microwave provision. The switches for the range hood need to meet reach range requirements.
In the other units it appears there is a microwave / combo or different cabinet configuration. I would also read on what can be tied to those required circuits as well and what they can serve. I would also think you are installing a panel in each unit.
In this case a trip with plans to local AHJ may be warranted.
I would also recommend a engineer be involved if required for your area.
Where I'm from one and two family dewelling do not require a stamped set of plans however multifamily does.

I did see the turn circle for the bath room on what appeared to be the ADA unit. The door looked small. No scale so just a guess. I would also assume that is the first floor and the stairs lead up to other units. Some areas require additional items for an ADA units.

OP is that engineer and still doesn't know what to do with drawing up the electrical and looks like he has good reason, that is horrible kitchen layout to have no counter space at all. And that doesn't matter if it is for full time residents or for guests, still needs at least a little bit of countertop and some cabinets to store dishes, food items, etc.

 

[wwhitney]

From the 2018 Hawaii code.
That Liv/Kit seems too small also

Looks like the LR is a bit too small (203 SF) to meet the efficiency dwelling unit definition (220 SF), and no refrigerator is shown, but it would otherwise meet that definition.

But so what? That section on its own imposes no requirements or minimums. Is there some other section that makes it important to meet that definition?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Sorry did not know he was an engineer. I will ask next time.
Thank you

 

[wwhitney]

But so what? That section on its own imposes no requirements or minimums. Is there some other section that makes it important to meet that definition?

The 2021 IBC adopted a definition:

DWELLING UNIT, EFFICIENCY. A dwelling unit where all permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating and cooking are contained in a single room

So with that definition, IBC 1207.4 is imposing minimum sizes on such dwelling units. But in the 2018 IBC, without that definition, Section 1207.4 imposes no requirements and effectively acts as definition.

In any event, the apartments in the drawing have separate bedrooms, so IBC 1207.4 would not apply.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[CutToTheChase]

Second the notion that that kitchen layout without any countertop is a poor design.

Like others have mentioned, no countertops = no receptacles required for 210.52(C). There's the option of squeezing one on either side of the sink if you're feeling generous, I suppose.

I'll leave it to others on if a countertop is required.

 

[Fred B]

NEC only indicates IF there is a countertop then countertop receptacles are needed. But there still needs to be AT LEAST 2 SABC for the kitchen area that serves no other space or outlets, 210.52(B)(1),(2). Where you install and how high is up to you, but I would suggest 1 or 2 receptacles at a logical location and elevation that could serve a portable rolling countertop or table, as small appliances have a cord limited to not more than 2ft and shouldn't require an extension cord to use the appliance.

 

[dissonant]

Here is I would look at it.
Since it's an apartment I would think it would be considered multifamily dwelling. Even though there appears to be no counter top area for receptacles to be place and your in the design stage. I would factor in those required circuits. Now where the outlets go is another matter.
Looking at the drawing it appears you have an ADA unit. I would ask for some info on appliances. In that case usually there is a range hood over the stove and a counter top microwave provision. The switches for the range hood need to meet reach range requirements.
In the other units it appears there is a microwave / combo or different cabinet configuration. I would also read on what can be tied to those required circuits as well and what they can serve. I would also think you are installing a panel in each unit.
In this case a trip with plans to local AHJ may be warranted.
I would also recommend a engineer be involved if required for your area.
Where I'm from one and two family dewelling do not require a stamped set of plans however multifamily does.

I did see the turn circle for the bath room on what appeared to be the ADA unit. The door looked small. No scale so just a guess. I would also assume that is the first floor and the stairs lead up to other units. Some areas require additional items for an ADA units.

Tulsa,
Thanks for mentioning that the ADA should have hood switch within reach range requirements. That was not on my radar so I need to look more into the ADA requirements. The screenshot I posted is of the 4th-5th floor so there is an elevator There are no such microwave or other small appliances; just range, sink and refrigerator. I'm planning on having 2 small appliance circuits, even though I'm not sure where to locate them (I am the electrical design engineer for this project). The bathroom door for the ADA unit is 30", which does seem to be two inches shorter than required per the 1998 HUD ADA design manual.

 

[hbiss]

From looking at your drawings it's clear that there is nothing that indicates where the kitchen ends and the living room begins. Indeed, the spaces are labeled KIT/LR. Likely the tenants will have carts and portable tables into the living room area for food prep. So, as far as I'm concerned, all receptacles in that whole KIT/LR area should be on a SABC circuit. Dining areas are required to be served by a SABC circuit anyway.

-Hal

 

[dissonant]

Thank you for everyone who has provided their two cents. I'm glad that it appears we have consensus that there is NO requirement for a countertop per the NEC but it may be part of a building code requirement, depending on jurisdiction. I can't force the architect to change the design and have already voiced my concerns about the usability of the kitchen but at least I have some good suggestions to look at to mitigate the lack of countertops.

 

[James L]

I wonder if this is a vacation condo, being in Hawaii

That layout looks really similar to a condo my wife and I stayed at when we were in Hong Kong together.

Food prep was done on the dining table, all by hand. Not bad if you're used to that sort of thing

 

[dissonant]

I wonder if this is a vacation condo, being in Hawaii

That layout looks really similar to a condo my wife and I stayed at when we were in Hong Kong together.

Food prep was done on the dining table, all by hand. Not bad if you're used to that sort of thing

No, it's a new affordable housing apartment complex. The owner and developer are Chinese, so maybe that's where they got the idea with no countertop. The architect finally responded and said they will redesign the layout to add in counters. I'll see how it looks when it comes back.