Is a sleeve a raceway?

[chris kennedy]

IMO art 100 def says yes.

Owner of our company wants to run NM in PVC above grade on the outside of a dwelling. Told him no as per 300.10 and 334.12.

Agree?

Thanks

 

[infinity]

IMO a section of raceway used as a sleeve is not a raceway. The outside of a dwelling is either a damp or wet location so NM is prohibited.

 

[chris kennedy]

The outside of a dwelling is either a damp or wet location so NM is prohibited.

As per...?

 

[romex jockey]

Methinks there is a dif in NM vs. NMC via 334.

But i find raceway vs sleeve more interesting>>>

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metallic or nonmetallic
materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or bus-
bars, with additional functions as permitted in this Code.


Informational Note: A raceway is identified within specific
article definitions.

I find the key work here is 'enclosed' , ergo defining sleeve by proxy of it being open

My Q would then be, do i derate for captive heat per T 310.15(b)(3)(a) if it's NOT a raceway.....?

~RJ~

 

[Dennis Alwon]

As per...?

300.9..........

300.9 Raceways in Wet Locations Abovegrade. Where
raceways are installed in wet locations abovegrade, the interior
of these raceways shall be considered to be a wet location.
Insulated conductors and cables installed in raceways in wet
locations abovegrade shall comply with 310.10(C).
ARTICLE 300— GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR WIRING METHODS AND MATERIALS 300.9
2014

 

[infinity]

Sleeves are not racewasy but sleeves can be constructed from raceways.

Chapter 9
Notes to Tables
(1) See Informative Annex C for the maximum number of
conductors and fixture wires, all of the same size (total
cross-sectional area including insulation) permitted in
trade sizes of the applicable conduit or tubing.
(2) Table 1 applies only to complete conduit or tubing systems
and is not intended to apply to sections of conduit or tubing
used to protect exposed wiring from physical damage

 

[Fulthrotl]

Sleeves are not racewasy but sleeves can be constructed from raceways.

yeah. a raceway begins and ends at approved fitting in approved enclosures.

a sleeve, being a portable hole, isn't that.

 

[romex jockey]

Thank you gentlemen....~RJ~

 

[chris kennedy]

300.9..........

Thats my point Dennis.
(Mistakenly listed 300.10 in my OP)

He is saying that 300.9 doesn't apply to a sleeve.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thats my point Dennis.
(Mistakenly listed 300.10 in my OP)

He is saying that 300.9 doesn't apply to a sleeve.

Well in this case I believe he is incorrect. I think we can safely say that the moisture in a sleeve will not be different then in a raceway

 

[goldstar]

I'm trying to understand this a little better. If I want to get a circuit from a basement to an attic and I ran PVC up the side of a house, used LB's to stub into each area that would be considered a sleeve. And if I terminated each end into a JB that would be considered a raceway ? Can I use mm cable in the sleeve and not the raceway ?

 

[infinity]

I'm trying to understand this a little better. If I want to get a circuit from a basement to an attic and I ran PVC up the side of a house, used LB's to stub into each area that would be considered a sleeve. And if I terminated each end into a JB that would be considered a raceway ? Can I use mm cable in the sleeve and not the raceway ?

Even if you considered that a sleeve isn't the NM cable still installed in a damp or wet location?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Even if you considered that a sleeve isn't the NM cable still installed in a damp or wet location?

I think that is where 300.9 falls short. Technically it mentions raceway. Now a sleeve is a raceway per se but not a complete raceway. IMO, you will not get an inspector to fall for this shortcoming in the article.

 

[iwire]

I think that is where 300.9 falls short.

But don't you think at that point (no raceway) that 334.12(B)(4) picks up the slack?

 

[kwired]

Well in this case I believe he is incorrect. I think we can safely say that the moisture in a sleeve will not be different then in a raceway

If the inside of the sleeve is prone to condensation it is still a wet or damp location. 300.9 applies to raceways not sleeves, though we ultimately get same end result.

Design the sleeve so that you pump moisture free air through it and you may not have condensation and will ultimately have a dry location - but you probably spent more doing that then had you run something rated for a damp/wet location.

 

[jumper]

But don't you think at that point (no raceway) that 334.12(B)(4) picks up the slack?

I certainly do.

 

[goldstar]

Even if you considered that a sleeve isn't the NM cable still installed in a damp or wet location?

I'm not so sure. The code allows you to run nm cable from a breaker panel to an outdoor A/C disconnect. The disconnect is obviously in a wet location yet you can terminate the NM cable conductors there. However, you cannot use those same conductors in the whip to the unit. The whip is totally in a wet location and is terminated at both ends.

Now, in the sleeve scenario I originally posted, the sleeve is not terminated on either end, air can enter through each end of the stubbed PVC and, if I remember correctly, we are now permitted to drill small weep holes in the bottoms of LB's to allow any moisture to drain out.

My argument here is not to the letter of the code but to the intent. Obviously the easy way out of this to use UF and be done with it or to properly terminate the PVC on both ends and use the correct wires. But, how many of regularly carry UF or spools of THWN on our trucks?

 

[kwired]

I'm not so sure. The code allows you to run nm cable from a breaker panel to an outdoor A/C disconnect. The disconnect is obviously in a wet location yet you can terminate the NM cable conductors there.

This has been debated here with no general consensus - though most think it is allowed a few don't and a few have said their AHJ's don't permit NM to penetrate to the exterior at all.

But, how many of regularly carry UF or spools of THWN on our trucks?

UF, not normally, THWN, nearly all the time especially 14 - 12 AWG in black white green, and usually a few other colors.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But don't you think at that point (no raceway) that 334.12(B)(4) picks up the slack?

One would think so but 300.9 was added because some people did not think inside a raceway in a wet area was considered a wet location. By that logic the nm would be in a dry environment since 300.9 says raceway.

I totally agree that a sleeve outdoor should be a wet location but it is not stated so in the code. As I said before anyone who tried to justify this install is, IMO, wrong and I doubt many authority having jurisdiction's would let it go--- maybe Gus...:lol:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I'm not so sure. The code allows you to run nm cable from a breaker panel to an outdoor A/C disconnect.

You see the code says raceway not enclosures. I agree it is a bit of a mess but surely you see the difference. In an enclosure the conductors are not likely to be sitting in water as they would be in a raceway.

I had thought about writing an exception for vertical pipe runs since they would not be holding water