Is ground rod needed?

[danno44]

If I have proper bonding to an approved water pipe at least 10' in earth and have properlty bonded to at least one other grounding electrode, do I need to install a ground rod as a third grounding electrode? I can find nothing in the 2008 code to clarify this.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you water pipe is an electrode then you have to supplement it with one other electrode. Thiis can be a ground rod, a concrete encased electrode or any of the methods mentioned in art.250

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is the article

250.53(D)(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground
water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through
(A)(8). If the supplemental electrode is of the rod, pipe, or
plate type, it shall comply with 250.53(A).

 

[danno44]

I have bonded the building steel, the incoming copper water service and a concrete encased ufer. Do I still need a ground rod if the cold water bond basically provides the same, if not better, grounding protection?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have bonded the building steel, the incoming copper water service and a concrete encased ufer. Do I still need a ground rod if the cold water bond basically provides the same, if not better, grounding protection?

I thought I was clear--- in your situation you do not need to use a ground rod.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you didn't have metallic pipe for a water line and you had a ufer then you don't need anything else-- assuming there are no other electrodes available. The NEC only requires a supplement electrode to a water pipe electrode because oftyen time the water lines get changed to plastic. The rods (most common supplementary electrodes) ensures an electrode on the premise.

In your case you are covered as you have many electrodes other than the water pipe. If the water pipe was your only electrode then you would need to add another-- as I stated before it is often ground rods but can be any of the ones listed 250.52

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I have bonded the building steel, the incoming copper water service and a concrete encased ufer. Do I still need a ground rod if the cold water bond basically provides the same, if not better, grounding protection?

Be ware that bonding the building steel is one thing but it is not necessarily an electrode-- the ufer is an electrode

 

[Smart $]

I thought I was clear---

I thought I heard you the first time!

 

[TheBIGVP.]

Copper pipes used as ground

Copper pipes used as ground

If you didn't have metallic pipe for a water line and you had a ufer then you don't need anything else-- assuming there are no other electrodes available. The NEC only requires a supplement electrode to a water pipe electrode because oftyen time the water lines get changed to plastic. The rods (most common supplementary electrodes) ensures an electrode on the premise.

In your case you are covered as you have many electrodes other than the water pipe. If the water pipe was your only electrode then you would need to add another-- as I stated before it is often ground rods but can be any of the ones listed 250.52

Thanks for your post. I have run into 3 cases over the last month where the panel was grounded to the copper water pipe only to have the water pipes replaced with non-metallic material (PVC, CPVC, & PEX). One of the plumbers was nice enough to leave the ground wire attached to a 6" piece of copper pipe suspended in midair!!!:slaphead:

 

[Tom the lectrician]

I may be a. Dumb s.ob, but

I may be a. Dumb s.ob, but

Well, what is required resistance to ground is 25 ohms or less, right? Break out the megger and see what you have. I thought it is required along with bonding building steel and water pipe, but the ufer is the thing in question...I'll check and I shall return with an answer.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Well, what is required resistance to ground is 25 ohms or less, right? Break out the megger and see what you have. I thought it is required along with bonding building steel and water pipe, but the ufer is the thing in question...I'll check and I shall return with an answer.

You are not required to have 25 ohms. The code states if you get 25 ohms with one rod then you don't have to add another. In most cases it is easier to just install 2 rods otherwise you would have to meet the inspector out there and show him/her that you have 25 ohms. It is pretty much impossible to get 25 ohms even with 2 rods in our area.

As I stated earlier rods are not necessary in some situation. If I have a ufer I don't need rods. Heck a ufer IMO, is 7 to 8 x better than rods anyway.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Thanks for your post. I have run into 3 cases over the last month where the panel was grounded to the copper water pipe only to have the water pipes replaced with non-metallic material (PVC, CPVC, & PEX). One of the plumbers was nice enough to leave the ground wire attached to a 6" piece of copper pipe suspended in midair!!!:slaphead:

I have heard stories of the plastic water lines being bonded.... Perhaps it was the plumber not knowing what to do when they replaced the copper :lol:

BTW welcome to the forum

 

[ActionDave]

Well, what is required resistance to ground is 25 ohms or less, right? Break out the megger and see what you have. I thought it is required along with bonding building steel and water pipe, but the ufer is the thing in question...I'll check and I shall return with an answer.

The 25 ohms or less means you only need one ground rod if a ground rod is your only grounding electrode.

 

[Tom the lectrician]

I haven't seen a yes..or a no, but

I haven't seen a yes..or a no, but

I haven't seen a requirement for an electrode unless the resistance to the grounding system is greater than 25 ohms. Then it must be installed along with it, and additional electrodes added and set no close than 6 feet together until that resistance is met. We installed 3 at one gas station a long time ago,. It was Florida soil so I'm not even sure we got it. I think we used all we had and left it that way. I was helping on that job. That's why I know that's not truebro. It's all about how deep your AHJ wants to take you. I'd say show him once, you'll have a good rep. With that twnshp for the rest of your career, as well as your company.

 

[big john]

Well, what is required resistance to ground is 25 ohms or less, right? Break out the megger and see what you have....

Just a little clarification: The only recognized way to test an electrode is a 3-point fall of potential test. It's a pain to do any you have to rent or hire the equipment. Much cheaper to just buy another rod.

 

[Tom the lectrician]

I'm gonna say, ok.

I'm gonna say, ok.

Just a little clarification: The only recognized way to test an electrode is a 3-point fall of potential test. It's a pain to do any you have to rent or hire the equipment. Much cheaper to just buy another rod.

Like I said, I was helping on that job but they broke out some kind of tester. Was a long time ago, so I thought you could do it with a megohmeter. Guess you can't go wrong oversizing it. I wouldn't need to do that test anyway. I'd have to get someone else to check it out, but it would have to be after your service is set, trans. And everything so just put them all in the dirt and tie it all tovether. Make sure you've got it

 

[jumper]

I haven't seen a requirement for an electrode unless the resistance to the grounding system is greater than 25 ohms. Then it must be installed along with it, and additional electrodes added and set no close than 6 feet together until that resistance is met. We installed 3 at one gas station a long time ago,. It was Florida soil so I'm not even sure we got it. I think we used all we had and left it that way. I was helping on that job. That's why I know that's not truebro. It's all about how deep your AHJ wants to take you. I'd say show him once, you'll have a good rep. With that twnshp for the rest of your career, as well as your company.

Not trying to be mean here, but I really do not understand what you are trying to say here.

Are you clear on what is required in 250.53?

 

[Tom the lectrician]

Not trying to be mean here, but I really do not understand what you are trying to say here.

Are you clear on what is required in 250.53?

It has to say something like,all building steel, water pipes and electriCal equipment shall be bonded at the firSt means of disconnect, right? Don't have my book anywhere near me.as well as your neutral bonding, no? This is the bullseye and the desired, if not standard set is 25 ohms to ground or less. I know because Any AHJ can demand you prove it according to that code right there

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I haven't seen a requirement for an electrode unless the resistance to the grounding system is greater than 25 ohms. Then it must be installed along with it, and additional electrodes added and set no close than 6 feet together until that resistance is met. We installed 3 at one gas station a long time ago,. It was Florida soil so I'm not even sure we got it. I think we used all we had and left it that way. I was helping on that job. That's why I know that's not truebro. It's all about how deep your AHJ wants to take you. I'd say show him once, you'll have a good rep. With that twnshp for the rest of your career, as well as your company.

This is not true-- if you don't have 25 ohms then only one more rod is needed whether you get 25 ohms or not

250.53(A)(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A single rod, pipe,
or plate electrode shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through
(A)(8). The supplemental electrode shall be permitted to be
bonded to one of the following:
(1) Rod, pipe, or plate electrode
(2) Grounding electrode conductor
(3) Grounded service-entrance conductor
(4) Nonflexible grounded service raceway
(5) Any grounded service enclosure
Exception: If a single rod, pipe, or plate grounding electrode
has a resistance to earth of 25 ohms or less, the
supplemental electrode shall not be required.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It has to say something like,all building steel, water pipes and electriCal equipment shall be bonded at the firSt means of disconnect, right? Don't have my book anywhere near me.

Bonding is not the same as using an electrode. We must bond metal water pipes that have plastic coming in from the street but that is not an electrode. Same for building steel- not all building steel is an electrode.