Is it a kitchen if no cooking?

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Coppersmith

Coppersmith

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Location
Tampa, FL, USA
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Electrical Contractor
I've searched through the past posts on the definition of a kitchen and didn't find anything that answered my questions below. Please base your answers on NEC 2011.

Art. 100 Definition: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

I'm wiring a commercial smoothie shop. There are two areas divided by a wall with a 3' walk through (no door).

In area one there are sinks, blenders, ice bins, and storage of ingredients. There is no cooking as I understand the definition of that word. Is this a kitchen?

In area two there are sinks, ice makers, fridges and freezers, and juicing machines. There is no cooking. Is this a kitchen?

Is the 'and' in the definition meant to be an 'or'?

The reason I'm asking the above is to determine where GFCI's are required. I have some outlets that are under the front counter in area one. If area one is a kitchen, are they 'in' the kitchen (thus required to be GFCI by 210.8(B)(2))? They are also within 6' of a sink. Would they have to be GFCI by virtue of distance to sink even though they are under a sales counter? (The counter has no cabinet doors BTW.)

I also have some utility wall outlets in the two areas that are far away from all the equipment and sinks. If area one or two are determined to be kitchens, do these outlets have to be GFCI?
 
There is no kitchen in that project, and the owner/PM will likely throw a fit if you even suggest otherwise. This can be a very contentious point on projects like that. The electrical implications of "kitchen vs non-kitchen" are barely the beginning - the real problem is all the other codes which apply as soon as an area is designated a "kitchen". Fire suppression, exhaust, grease traps, OSHA concerns, health codes, etc. Then there's be big picture: allowable occupancy types and uses. Many locations simply cannot accept a "kitchen" due to all these regulations.

Insist it's not really a kitchen. The management will back you up.

GFCI is still a good idea whether it's required or not (it sounds like it is anyway) and may be mandatory as a matter of liability even if not required by the NEC.
 
??
commercial?
doesnt that require prints? prints will determine what it is (is not), etc.
 
There's going to be a very fine hair to be split as to whether you actually need to use heat to process food to consider it 'cooking' as some references don't include 'heat' in the definitions.

Another semantic hair to split is whether the NEC requires both preparation and (heat) cooking for the area to be considered a kitchen or whether just preparation alone creates a kitchen.

IMHO, it's a kitchen whether or not there's a stove, oven or toaster. The act of increasing the temperature of a batch of ingredients does not increase any risk of electrical hazards.
 
480sparky said:
There's going to be a very fine hair to be split as to whether you actually need to use heat to process food to consider it 'cooking' as some references don't include 'heat' in the definitions.

Another semantic hair to split is whether the NEC requires both preparation and (heat) cooking for the area to be considered a kitchen or whether just preparation alone creates a kitchen.

IMHO, it's a kitchen whether or not there's a stove, oven or toaster. The act of increasing the temperature of a batch of ingredients does not increase any risk of electrical hazards.
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Interesting points with a fair amount of validity to consider. Well done IMO.
 
480sparky said:
There's going to be a very fine hair to be split as to whether you actually need to use heat to process food to consider it 'cooking' as some references don't include 'heat' in the definitions.

Another semantic hair to split is whether the NEC requires both preparation and (heat) cooking for the area to be considered a kitchen or whether just preparation alone creates a kitchen.

IMHO, it's a kitchen whether or not there's a stove, oven or toaster. The act of increasing the temperature of a batch of ingredients does not increase any risk of electrical hazards.
Click to expand...

How about removing heat? Since smoothies are made by blending ingredients with ice they come out colder than when they started.
 
480sparky said:
There's going to be a very fine hair to be split as to whether you actually need to use heat to process food to consider it 'cooking' as some references don't include 'heat' in the definitions.

Another semantic hair to split is whether the NEC requires both preparation and (heat) cooking for the area to be considered a kitchen or whether just preparation alone creates a kitchen.

IMHO, it's a kitchen whether or not there's a stove, oven or toaster. The act of increasing the temperature of a batch of ingredients does not increase any risk of electrical hazards.
Click to expand...

I would say according to the NEC, not a kitchen. The key takeaway as I see it is the use of the article "and" in the definition. Had there been an "or" I'd reconsider. So really, there's no semantic hair to split. They used "and", they mean "and". Preparation alone doesn't cut it.
 
gadfly56 said:
I would say according to the NEC, not a kitchen. The key takeaway as I see it is the use of the article "and" in the definition. Had there been an "or" I'd reconsider. So really, there's no semantic hair to split. They used "and", they mean "and". Preparation alone doesn't cut it.
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I agree-but the op should just install the gfcis anyway and move on.
 
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gadfly56 said:
The GFCI's should go in because the outlets are within 6 feet of a sink.
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:slaphead:

Missed the ops within 6ft measurement- 210.8(B)(5) applies for at least part of his installation.

And even the equipment that is installed technically outside that area, but still in the food prep, the juicers, mixers etc- still a good idea to just gfci that too.
 
gadfly56 said:
I would say according to the NEC, not a kitchen. The key takeaway as I see it is the use of the article "and" in the definition. Had there been an "or" I'd reconsider. So really, there's no semantic hair to split. They used "and", they mean "and". Preparation alone doesn't cut it.
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Any interpretation offered here is meaningless. It's the AHJ's interpretation that will count.
 
480sparky said:
Any interpretation offered here is meaningless. It's the AHJ's interpretation that will count.
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Just as Scotty is always telling Kirk "I cannae change the laws 'a physics", the AHJ "cannae change the laws 'a grammar".
 
480sparky said:
Any interpretation offered here is meaningless. It's the AHJ's interpretation that will count.
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kinda sorta almost maybe true.

yes, AHJ has final word, but info here may arm someone with additional info for rebuttal purposes, perhaps an exception that AHJ guy missed, etc.
 
Coppersmith said:
Spoken like someone who does not write payroll or supply house checks. ;)
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You know, those gfcis are only $12 a piece- thats not a fortune. Besides you have what, at the most, a dozen or so receptacles you have too install. Don't you carry at least that many on your truck?:p

Is gfci'ng the equipment just outside of the area that is required going to break you?

And lastly, there have been issues with juicers tripping gfcis, juicers that weren't ul listed and that worked "fine" (but had leakage, just waiting to shock somebody) when plugged into a reg rec.- been a few threads here on that one.

Now suppose someone gets bit, who are they going to come after? CYA....
 
user 100 said:
You know, those gfcis are only $12 a piece- thats not a fortune. Besides you have what, at the most, a dozen or so receptacles you have too install. Don't you carry at least that many on your truck?:p

Is gfci'ng the equipment just outside of the area that is required going to break you?
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I think you are forgetting a few costs. The retail price of the GFCI may be $12, but add sales tax, vehicle costs (to go get them), labor costs (to have an employee go get them) and they are a lot more. I personally markup materials x 2 and I figure I make no money on material. That makes a $12 GFCI cost $24.

I'm looking at having to install ten GFCI's so $240 in additional material costs.

How do businesses earn profits? A penny at a time. $240 is a lot of pennies.

How do businesses go broke? By not trying to cut costs where possible. This is a fixed price job. Every penny I spend comes right out of the profits.

If you think $240 is just chump change, then by all means please send me a check for $240 since you don't need it. I'll cover the additional labor costs of installing and warrantying the GFCIs myself.

BTW: I carry 6-9 white 15 amp indoor tamper GFCIs on the truck and a bunch of other colors and types.
 
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