Is it a kitchen if no cooking?

[Fulthrotl]

Any interpretation offered here is meaningless. It's the AHJ's interpretation that will count.

well, for the purposes of lighting, a "food prep area" does not permit dimming.
cooking or not. you can be making salads. you can't dim the lights.

and if you be making salads, it's starting to look like a kitchen....
and if it's yuppie food, and there is seared ahi on that salad, it's all over.

where i had breakfast this morning, is a bar. but in the los feliz area
of LA, this is what bar food looks like...... there was also
linen napkins, and valet parking. couple at the next table were
hosed on mimosas. been there a while.

bar food, 9 AM, LA:

 

[Coppersmith]

View attachment 18658

I'll have the French toast and a mimosa.

 

[user 100]

I think you are forgetting a few costs. The retail price of the GFCI may be $12, but add sales tax, vehicle costs (to go get them), labor costs (to have an employee go get them) and they are a lot more. I personally markup materials x 2 and I figure I make no money on material. That makes a $12 GFCI cost $24. They are people on this site who say they markup x3 x4 x5 and x6.

I'm looking at having to install ten GFCI's so $240 in additional material costs.

How do businesses earn profits? A penny at a time. $240 is a lot of pennies.

How do businesses go broke? By not trying to cut costs where possible. This is a fixed price job. Every penny I spend comes right out of the profits.

If you think $240 is just chump change, then by all means please send me a check for $240 since you don't need it. I'll cover the additional labor costs of installing and warrantying the GFCIs myself.

BTW: I carry 6-9 white 15 amp indoor tamper GFCIs on the truck and a bunch of other colors and types.

The issue w/ the juicers is the reason why I mentioned its a good idea- unless you know for certain those juicers/other equipment to be installed aren't foreign and are ul listed.

Not intending to sound wasteful, just giving food for thought/something to consider.

 

[Little Bill]

I think you are forgetting a few costs. The retail price of the GFCI may be $12, but add sales tax, vehicle costs (to go get them), labor costs (to have an employee go get them) and they are a lot more. I personally markup materials x 2 and I figure I make no money on material. That makes a $12 GFCI cost $24.

I'm looking at having to install ten GFCI's so $240 in additional material costs.

How do businesses earn profits? A penny at a time. $240 is a lot of pennies.

How do businesses go broke? By not trying to cut costs where possible. This is a fixed price job. Every penny I spend comes right out of the profits.

If you think $240 is just chump change, then by all means please send me a check for $240 since you don't need it. I'll cover the additional labor costs of installing and warrantying the GFCIs myself.

BTW: I carry 6-9 white 15 amp indoor tamper GFCIs on the truck and a bunch of other colors and types.

I'm not offering an opinion on kitchen vs non-kitchen, but on the bold above.

Seems to me you should have checked on the requirements for GFCI before pricing the job. If required, just add the cost to the job. Shouldn't be any loss on your part, actually would be a gain on profits.

 

[MAC702]

...Seems to me you should have checked on the requirements for GFCI before pricing the job. If required, just add the cost to the job. Shouldn't be any loss on your part, actually would be a gain on profits.

MANY times I have bid a job for "worst case" scenarios before spending a lot of time figuring things exactly for a job I might not get. This is especially true if the competition isn't too bad in bidding for the job, and depends greatly on how much I want the job.

But once I have the job, I'm not going to spend money I don't have to, and it is now worth the extra time to find complicated answers. Savings become direct gravy.

I'm addressing the principle only, not this particular situation, dollar value, or difficulty in finding exact answer.

 

[Coppersmith]

I'm not offering an opinion on kitchen vs non-kitchen, but on the bold above.

Seems to me you should have checked on the requirements for GFCI before pricing the job. If required, just add the cost to the job. Shouldn't be any loss on your part, actually would be a gain on profits.

I see you want to know how this could possibly happen, I'll tell you:

(1) When bidding the job, I was focused on the electrical prints and I missed on the plumbing prints where there was going to be a small sink close enough to several receptacles to force them to be GFCIs.

(2) Realizing the above very far into the job, I researched the NEC article on GFCIs to determine the exact requirements and discovered the word "kitchen" which got me thinking as to whether I was working on a kitchen which would trigger all sorts of chaos.

When one discovers things during a bid, the bid is adjusted.

When one discovers things after the job is started, one tries to minimize the damage.

 

[user 100]

I see you want to know how this could possibly happen, I'll tell you:

(1) When bidding the job, I was focused on the electrical prints and I missed on the plumbing prints where there was going to be a small sink close enough to several receptacles to force them to be GFCIs.

(2) Realizing the above very far into the job, I researched the NEC article on GFCIs to determine the exact requirements and discovered the word "kitchen" which got me thinking as to whether I was working on a kitchen which would trigger all sorts of chaos.

When one discovers things during a bid, the bid is adjusted.

When one discovers things after the job is started, one tries to minimize the damage.

I'm still going w/ a NO on this being a kitchen and only the areas near the sink (required anyway) and where the juicing equipment would be plugged in (I know, not required per your description , but I stated my opinion on that earlier), need gfci.

Anything else, like those utility wall recs, doesn't.

 

[Ponchik]

You know, those gfcis are only $12 a piece- thats not a fortune. Besides you have what, at the most, a dozen or so receptacles you have too install. Don't you carry at least that many on your truck?

Is gfci'ng the equipment just outside of the area that is required going to break you?

And lastly, there have been issues with juicers tripping gfcis, juicers that weren't ul listed and that worked "fine" (but had leakage, just waiting to shock somebody) when plugged into a reg rec.- been a few threads here on that one.

Now suppose someone gets bit, who are they going to come after? CYA....

:thumbsup:
IMO, well said.

If I was the AHJ on this project I would consider it a kitchen area.

I think it is a mistake to price project with a tight bid that you do not have wiggle room.

 

[drktmplr12]

I would do GFI's near sink and on counter-top, there's no telling what they are going to plug into them..

At least you are trying to minimize the damage legally! Not that much can be said for everyone who missed information on the bid. You'll make it up in the next one!

I'll have the French toast and a mimosa.

I'll have what he's having-Gotta spend those profits somehwere! :lol:

 

[cowboyjwc]

I've searched through the past posts on the definition of a kitchen and didn't find anything that answered my questions below. Please base your answers on NEC 2011.

Art. 100 Definition: Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.

I'm wiring a commercial smoothie shop. There are two areas divided by a wall with a 3' walk through (no door).

In area one there are sinks, blenders, ice bins, and storage of ingredients. There is no cooking as I understand the definition of that word. Is this a kitchen?

In area two there are sinks, ice makers, fridges and freezers, and juicing machines. There is no cooking. Is this a kitchen?

Is the 'and' in the definition meant to be an 'or'?

The reason I'm asking the above is to determine where GFCI's are required. I have some outlets that are under the front counter in area one. If area one is a kitchen, are they 'in' the kitchen (thus required to be GFCI by 210.8(B)(2))? They are also within 6' of a sink. Would they have to be GFCI by virtue of distance to sink even though they are under a sales counter? (The counter has no cabinet doors BTW.)

I also have some utility wall outlets in the two areas that are far away from all the equipment and sinks. If area one or two are determined to be kitchens, do these outlets have to be GFCI?

No

 

[charlie b]

My opinion is that this is not a kitchen, and that GFCIs are only needed near the sinks. To that I will add that I do not consider a countertop microwave oven to be a "permanent provision for cooking."

That said, if you did this same job in my neighborhood, you would be dealing with the kitchen rules. Washington State has its own code requirements, and their definition of a kitchen includes areas where utensils are washed or where food is prepared.

 

[jumper]

No

Folks up north in Sonoma County would disagree. Their local amendment/definition.

A. Kitchen. A kitchen means an area within a structure that is used or designed to be used for the preparation or cooking of food and that contains one or both of the following:

1. Cooking appliances or rough in facilities including, but not limited to: ovens, convection ovens, stoves, stove tops, built-in grills or microwave ovens or similar appliances, 240 volt electrical outlets or any gas lines.

OR

2. A sink less than 18 inches in depth with a waste line drain 1-½ inches or greater in diameter AND a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity or space opening with an electrical outlet that may reasonably be used for a refrigerator exceeding five (5) cubic feet in capacity.

http://www.sonoma-county.org/prmd/docs/policies/1-4-5.pdf

 

[gadfly56]

Folks up north in Sonoma County would disagree. Their local amendment/definition.


http://www.sonoma-county.org/prmd/docs/policies/1-4-5.pdf

With local amendments YMMV. Going by the NEC as published the answer would still be "no".

 

[jumper]

With local amendments YMMV.

That was my point.

 

[kwired]

I see you want to know how this could possibly happen, I'll tell you:

(1) When bidding the job, I was focused on the electrical prints and I missed on the plumbing prints where there was going to be a small sink close enough to several receptacles to force them to be GFCIs.

(2) Realizing the above very far into the job, I researched the NEC article on GFCIs to determine the exact requirements and discovered the word "kitchen" which got me thinking as to whether I was working on a kitchen which would trigger all sorts of chaos.

When one discovers things during a bid, the bid is adjusted.

When one discovers things after the job is started, one tries to minimize the damage.

You were supposed to include some overage in your price for unforseen things, eat whatever cost you must and call it a learning experience, you will catch similar situation next time. I would possibly seek only using GFCI within 6 feet of sinks if AHJ agrees as well.

 

[MAC702]

You were supposed to include some overage in your price for unforseen things....

Yes, but that doesn't mean you stop trying to find out if you don't really need it right up until you install it.