Is my garage electric up to snuff?

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Joan

Member
Location
Chicago IL
Hi
Im posting here because I am selling my home and am having issues with a prospective buyer who keeps referencing "code" or "nec" in regards to my garage electricity.

My detached garage has 4- 10awg wires running to it. 2 hots, neutral and ground. They are on a double pole 20A breaker. Both the 10awg ground wire and 10awg neutral wire are on the neutral bussbar inside the mainpanel. There is single pole switch at the entryway to the garage which shuts the entire garage off. There are only a few gfci outlets in the garage in addition to lighting and the gdo. There is no ground rod and these wires are buried in pvc pipe.

A prospective buyer is claiming that my setup is not up to code. That there are two circuits sharing a neutral and claims this is very dangerous since they are on a double pole breaker and not on opposite sides of the panel. He says I am likely overloading the neutral wire.


He is claiming to be "in the trades" and says in order for him to be interested I would have to bring the garage up to code by having a subpanel installed or reimbursing him to do so.

I came here because I figured this is "the" place for code issues and I wanted to gain some knowledge in order to discuss the issue with the guy.

So the bottom line, is there anything about what I describe that is against code or otherwise dangerous?
Is there any other information I can post here to clarify to you the specifics of my garage electrical?

Joan
 
The electrician is partially correct it is only a sp switch. I bet it is a dp switch in which case the wiring is compliant. What you have is a multiwire branch circuit which is compliant according to the nec.
 
Here is the code section

225.30 Number of Supplies. A building or other structure
that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a
service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one
feeder or branch circuit unless permitted in 225.30(A)
through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire
branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.
Where a branch circuit or feeder originates in these additional
buildings or other structures, only one feeder or branch
circuit shall be permitted to supply power back to the original
building or structure, unless permitted in 225.30(A)
through (E).
Click to expand...
 
Joan said:
A prospective buyer is claiming that my setup is not up to code. That there are two circuits sharing a neutral and claims this is very dangerous since they are on a double pole breaker and not on opposite sides of the panel. He says I am likely overloading the neutral wire.

He is claiming to be "in the trades" and says in order for him to be interested I would have to bring the garage up to code by having a subpanel installed or reimbursing him to do so.
Click to expand...

As Dennis stated you have a MWBC and it's required to be on a 2 pole circuit breaker. I would politely decline to fix something that likely isn't broken.
 
Joan said:
They are on a double pole 20A breaker.

There is single pole switch at the entryway to the garage which shuts the entire garage off.

There is no ground rod and these wires are buried in pvc pipe.

That there are two circuits sharing a neutral and claims this is very dangerous since they are on a double pole breaker and not on opposite sides of the panel. He says I am likely overloading the neutral wire.
Click to expand...
If the two hots are on separate terminals of the 2-pole breaker, they are "on opposite sides of the panel" automatically.

If a single-pole switch shuts off the entire garage, then it's on only wired one hot wire; you'd need a double-pole switch.

A ground rod is not required for a single circuit, whether it is a single or multi-wire circuit. A panel would require a rod.

Two hot wires will not overload a shared neutral if the two hots originate on separate terminals of a 2-pole breaker.
 
Since the OP stated that the switch kills the entire garage I would concur with Dennis' statement that it's likely a 2-pole switch. You could always ask this person to clarify how it's dangerous or not up to code by providing some code references.
 
Joan said:
... there are two circuits sharing a neutral ... on a double pole breaker and not on opposite sides of the panel. He says I am likely overloading the neutral wire. ...
Click to expand...
There might be a problem if the two hot wires are fed from a tandem breaker, and he's erroneously calling it a "double-pole" breaker.
The only (?) situation where it's necessary to feed the two hot wires from opposite sides of the panel is if you have a PushmaticTM circuit-breaker panel.
The Chicago electrical code is a little bit different from the National Electrical Code -- their building codes are a little more conservative, on account of the fire -- but this isn't going to be one of the exceptions.
A photograph of your panel, with the garage circuit labeled, would enable us to definitively answer this.

APR17_Reset_Breaker_4.jpg

https://cdn2.tmbi.com/TFH/Step-By-Step/APR17_Reset_Breaker_4.jpg
 
Joan said:
says in order for him to be interested I would have to bring the garage up to code by having a subpanel installed or reimbursing him to do so.

Joan
Click to expand...


Is he willing to buy the house at your asking price if you do this ? How much does he wish to be "reimbursed"?

If it's not that much it may be worth it. It's common practice to try to find something supposedly wrong with anything you are trying to buy in order to bring the price down. It's just another form of negotiating price.
 
growler said:
Is he willing to buy the house at your asking price if you do this ? How much does he wish to be "reimbursed"?

If it's not that much it may be worth it. It's common practice to try to find something supposedly wrong with anything you are trying to buy in order to bring the price down. It's just another form of negotiating price.
Click to expand...

Better yet, tell him you're willing to put that difference in an escrow account, to be paid out on presentation of an invoice from a licensed electrician and copies of the permit and final inspection record. If said documentation isn't produced within 18 months of closing, the money goes back to you.

I had someone put the screws to me regarding the roof of the last home I owned. Now, they weren't wrong; the house definitely needed a new roof. Here it is 12 years later, and it really definitely needs a new roof. Won't make that mistake again.
 
Thank you all for the great replies... just to clarify, i mispoke, it is a double pole switch and the breaker is double pole, common trip.

Thanks for the bargaining chips... i think i will stand pat.
 
Joan said:
Thank you all for the great replies... just to clarify, i mispoke, it is a double pole switch and the breaker is double pole, common trip.

Thanks for the bargaining chips... i think i will stand pat.
Click to expand...


Given that clarification there is nothing to fix. As I stated earlier if push comes to shove ask them to clarify the "problems" along with a code citation. Good luck.
 
I was actually impressed it was a 20A circuit with #10 wire, presumably for voltage drop at a detached building. That told me it was NOT a cheaped-out job.
 
It must be the buyers way of trying to get a way of lowering the price. If it is a deal breaker and you need to sell then give him a few hundred bucks. You also may want to show him this thread.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It must be the buyers way of trying to get a way of lowering the price. If it is a deal breaker and you need to sell then give him a few hundred bucks. You also may want to show him this thread.
Click to expand...

Could be, unless the seller is desperate to sell to this person I would give them back $0.00.
 
Joan said:
That there are two circuits sharing a neutral and claims this is very dangerous since they are on a double pole breaker and not on opposite sides of the panel. He says I am likely overloading the neutral wire.
Click to expand...
This line tells me two things. First, that this person is not in the trade, or at least not as a licensed electrician with experience in residential installations. Secondly, that this person is trying to con you into doing something that lines his pocket and that has no impact on safety. To me, this situation smells like dishonesty. I might suggest telling him you are not interested in negotiating with him for the purchase of your house. If you have it listed with a real estate company, your contract will require you to accept any full price offer. It does not require you to agree to anything other than the exact listing terms. So tell the prospective buyer to submit a full price, no strings attached offer, or hit the road.

 
drcampbell said:
There might be a problem if the two hot wires are fed from a tandem breaker, and he's erroneously calling it a "double-pole" breaker.
Click to expand...

This is a very good point, and OP can use it in the negotiation.

Don't tell the buyer he is wrong. Tell him his insight is CORRECT if the breaker is tandem. But tell him the breaker is a double pole, which is how it's done for an NEC compliant multiwire circuit. When using two phases (double pole) the neutral load cancels depending on the balance on the phases, which is why this configuration is code compliant (e.g., does not overload the neutral).

This way, you both get to be right. And when both parties feel vindicated, negotiations are much smoother. A win win for seller and buyer alike.
 
charlie b said:
This line tells me two things. First, that this person is not in the trade, or at least not as a licensed electrician with experience in residential installations. Secondly, that this person is trying to con you into doing something that lines his pocket and that has no impact on safety. To me, this situation smells like dishonesty. I might suggest telling him you are not interested in negotiating with him for the purchase of your house. If you have it listed with a real estate company, your contract will require you to accept any full price offer. It does not require you to agree to anything other than the exact listing terms. So tell the prospective buyer to submit a full price, no strings attached offer, or hit the road.
Click to expand...

Agree.:thumbsup:

I spotted that same comment and that was enough to tell me that the buyer was clueless about electrical.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top