Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

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Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Jim this is a huge issue for the NFPA one that has already been to court I think Don has more info on this.

It is available for free to look at (at least it's supposed to be) at your city or town offices.

You can also find the NEC in the public library.

On one hand I agree with you, I can go on line and look up all my local laws for free including the MA amendments to the NEC.

On the other hand sales of the NEC keep the NFPA funded.

It's a tough situation, one that may have a large impact on the NECs future.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

This all started because i said something to him about the high cost of a NEC CD ,that we all know can be produced for under $1 .I can burn a copy of nec for 40 cents and 5 minutes of my time.Is it legal to burn a copy of laws ? I think yes.
I do feel that if you use someones material that is copy writed then you must pay them.So in reallity when your local ahj elects to use nec as there set of laws then they need to pay nfpa.
That might mean higher permit fees but at least every helper to master would have a copy of nec if they wanted it.
Guess i reopened that can of worms :D
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

It is only a law if that State (or local jurisdiction in some cases) has adopted it and it has ran it's course throughout the legislative bodies. I would be very suprised if it is not adopted in your area though. They can also choose to adopt only parts of it as well. If it is indeed been acted upon by your government, it is very much enforceable (law)and probably has some type of penalties attached to it under some circumstances. This question is something only your government can answer.

[ April 10, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: necbuff ]
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Lets look at how all of our other laws are funded,perhaps its time for our states to begin paying nfpa for using there employies work.Yes we do need NEC but would it be legal if someone offered a english version of nec? I don't think it's accidental that we keep changing the code every 3 years.Would be nice to be able to go to a chapter saying DINING ROOMS and in simple words tell us what we can and can not do,along with pictures.Yes it might get a lot bigger but would give answers fast and not keep sending you in circles from one code to another with exceptions.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Originally posted by jimwalker:
That might mean higher permit fees but at least every helper to master would have a copy of nec if they wanted it.
Click to expand...
I don't think higher permit fees would be very fair, it would only be paid by the contractors and of course the owners of the buildings. What about all the instructors that use the NEC to teach, what about all the people living in houses that were wired using the NEC's requirements? They wouldn't be paying anything.
I think a small fee should be added to everyone's electric bill to cover the cost of keeping the NFPA funded, after all if you are using electricity, you are taking advantage of all the work that went into the design of the electrical system you're utilizing.
Don't forget, electricity is just a luxury, Not a Necessity.
I can't imagine it would be more then 1.00 from every person that uses utility power.
Of course anyone that doesn't use electricity would be exempt!


Dave
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

For what it is worth, the fine print notes, table of contents, index, annexes, etc. are all copyrighted material and it is illegal to copy them. :D
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Charlie, are you saying that when a municipality adopts the NEC it doesn't adopt all of it?

Only the sections with numbers preceding them are adopted?

I'm not buying this.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Sam, the statement I made is from a person at the NFPA who shall remain nameless. I don't think what you or I believe will have any bearing on anything where this is concerned. I do believe the courts will make that determination. :D
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Well, I can't argue with that. And I'm certainly not a lawyer.

So it sounds as if the NFPA is currently addressing this very issue.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Well to charge a poco customer is wrong.Anything they publish after that house was built wont help that customer.

Here is something to think over.If nfpa did not intend for us to use it as a law then who did they write it for ? What they did was set up a monopoly.Yes they need funded but not by the ones that are forced to pay for it in order to follow the law.If its was intended to be the law then it had to be made free.Just why in the computer age should this be so costly ? Now if i want a hard copy to read then yes it does cost to print.But a web site would serve millions.If i went to my building department and said i want a copy of the nec because i am building a house ,could they refuse ?If they do and i said then fine i will not be required by law to follow it ,then what ?
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

The NFPA did not make the law in your area.

The NFPA created a standard that each area can chose to use or not. If you have this kind of beef you got take it up with your state law makers. :D

You could write Jim's electrical code and try to have your law makers adopt it.

If you have the 2005 NEC read the back page where it talks about copyrights and the NFPA not giving up their rights to hold the copyright.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Bob your right.No i dont have the 05 if you can please post that page i would love to read it.I had no idea that there was any litigation going on when i opened this can of worms :D
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Jim,

If a version of the NEC is adopted, the only legal obligation of the jurisdiction it that the text be made available to you. You are still not entitled to a copy at taxpayer expense.

Theoretically, it would be legal for you to go to the local library - or where ever the jurisdiction keeps a copy - and make a handwritten copy of the entire document, if it has been adopted. Alternately, you may be permitted to make an electronic facsimile - at your own expense. It would still probably be more expensive to you than purchasing a copy form an NPFA source.

At question it whether Codes and Standards, adopted by a jurisdiction, become public domain to the extent they may be posted freely on the Internet. While my State does post the majority of its Codes and Regulations, I do not know that it is constitutionally bound to. The NEC is adopted "by reference."

Free, unlimited public access to the NEC would destroy the NFPA. That may or may not be a good thing depending on you predilections, but it would be the result.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

I think I understand where you were going with this, Jim.

The NEC in itself is NOT a law. It is only a code or guidline defining appropriate methods to use electricity safely.

Whether or not any jurisdiction passes a law to adopt the code does not make the code itself a law. The LAW may make it required to follow the code, but it does not make the code itself a law and therefore, the code is still not public domain.

Analogy:
We are required by law to stop at a stop sign. Does the fact that the law requires this make the stop sign itself a law? No, the stop sign is still just a stop sign but the law requires compliance with its intention.

This is how I see it.

Bob
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Ok correct me where i am wrong.
1. nfpa wrote the nec with intent that states and counties would force its use
2.nfpa has a monopoly being the only publisher of this nec book
3.they deserve some profit for there work.
4.any state or county at the point they wish to adopt nec must provide me with free access to it
5. i have the right to copy it any way i choose,either my hand,photo copy,fax etc
6.if i so choose i could take my laptop computer to library and type it word for word
7.if that library has it on a cd and has a burner i could copy it
8 .the county or state needed to make a deal with nfpa before they adopted it, because at that point it had to made free to view
9 the county or state is the one that violated the copy write
10 anyone wishing to rewrite the nec with profeshional people to clearify the way nfpa wrote it would legally be allowed to do so
11. monopolies are illegal
12.the state or county should put this on a web site along with all there other laws and rules.

Now i am sure this wont happen over night but the funding for nfpa to produce the nec needs to come from the government just like it does for all other regulations and laws.
This could turn into a class action lawsuit seeking damages to all that paid for code books.

Yes messsy
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

Whether or not any jurisdiction passes a law to adopt the code does not make the code itself a law
Click to expand...
No matter how you view it, the words of the code are the essence of the law.

One thing is clear, at least to me, the words of the code must be made public. In my view, saying the words are not the law, doesn't change anything. It sounds protectionist to me.

I don't like that the NFPA could be in serious danger from this. But the legal monster that we seem to believe is the best way to do things has tons of short comings. This is just another one of them. Our legal system just consumes things in this way as a matter of course.

We could add another set of laws to those that exist to fix this. And make it even more complicated for the next thing that comes up. band-aids a thousand feet high.

Lawyers thrive on this stuff. But all the money that goes their way doesn't produce anything real, ok, tangible.
 
Re: Is NEC a set of LAWS ?

"I don't like that the NFPA could be in serious danger from this"
I do share that belief.And seriously think it will not come to an end as we do need some rules.Who will foot the bill is the question.Look at how hard the recording industry if fight the file share programs,and they are loosing.Napster just gave up the fight.Plenty of others like LIMEWIRE are still running.And if you search limewire you will find nec is being shared as i type this
 
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