is supplementary electrode (rod) required with UFER

[jaggedben]

Since the poco is requiring it and not NEC does this not make it an auxiliary” I think that is the term.

I was going to say that, but the NEC only permits Auxiliary Electrodes to be connected to Equipment Grounding Conductors. (And that more or less defines what an Auxiliary Electrode is, because there's no other definition.) So assuming there is no EGC at the meter and the utility wants the rod GEC connected to the grounded conductor, the letter of the code does not support that conclusion. I'd agree if the NEC explicitly defined Auxiliary Electrodes as electrodes not required by the NEC, but that's not the case.

 

[jaggedben]

Somehow my earlier reply on the main topic didn't get posted.

The way the code is written, the only situation in which two electrodes of any type is not sufficient for the required NEC GES is if one electrode is a metal underground water pipe and the other is a rod, pipe, or plate.

 

[wwhitney]

The way the code is written, the only situation in which two electrodes of any type is not sufficient for the required NEC GES is if one electrode is a metal underground water pipe and the other is a rod, pipe, or plate.

Correct. And the only way in which one electrode is not sufficient is if that electrode is a metal underground water pipe or a rod, pipe or plate.

And any 3 electrodes is always sufficient.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jot30]

Correct. And the only way in which one electrode is not sufficient is if that electrode is a metal underground water pipe or a rod, pipe or plate.

And any 3 electrodes is always sufficient.

Cheers, Wayne

Ok...so per code... a pipe needs a supplemental and a single rod needs a supplemental...so can the UFER be the required supplemental for the water pipe and Also for the single rod and meet the intent of the code.

 

[wwhitney]

Ok...so per code... a pipe needs a supplemental and a single rod needs a supplemental...so can the UFER be the required supplemental for the water pipe and Also for the single rod and meet the intent of the code.

Yes, for the third time.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[AC\DC]

I was going to say that, but the NEC only permits Auxiliary Electrodes to be connected to Equipment Grounding Conductors. (And that more or less defines what an Auxiliary Electrode is, because there's no other definition.) So assuming there is no EGC at the meter and the utility wants the rod GEC connected to the grounded conductor, the letter of the code does not support that conclusion. I'd agree if the NEC explicitly defined Auxiliary Electrodes as electrodes not required by the NEC, but that's not the case.

But does that single rod fall under NEC or poco I say poco

 

[david]

The op said @the meter, and since the water pipe and and other electrodes where mentioned we rightfully make the assumption that the meter is attached to the dwelling

I never read utility requlations that addressed grounding electrodes for a meter unless it was on its own structure such as a pole.

Any time the meter was installed with the service equipment the utility addressed the grounding electrodes for the service.

Not saying my observation is correct just needs clarification,

If this meter in question is on its own structure than all these other electrodes in discussion would not really matter

Edit:
Utility regulations are usually avaliable on line but without knowing what utility can't really look at the regulations.

 

[jot30]

Yes, for the third time.

Cheers, Wayne

Ok... thanks missed the other two times

 

[jaggedben]

But does that single rod fall under NEC or poco I say poco

It isn't necessarily either/or. Just because it's there because the utility requires it doesn't mean it isn't also under the scope of the NEC. A utility requiring an additonal rod happens to be of no real consequence to NEC compliance, but you still have to know what the NEC says in order to say that.

 

[AC\DC]

It isn't necessarily either/or. Just because it's there because the utility requires it doesn't mean it isn't also under the scope of the NEC. A utility requiring an additonal rod happens to be of no real consequence to NEC compliance, but you still have to know what the NEC says in order to say that.

Correct but let’s say you have a ufer. Thas your gec, NEC says you are good to go then poco says drive this if they don’t say make this a gec is it really ?
I get you seem, you can go either way

 

[jaggedben]

Correct but let’s say you have a ufer. Thas your gec, NEC says you are good to go then poco says drive this if they don’t say make this a gec is it really ?
I get you seem, you can go either way

The poco tells you to drive a rod and connect it the meter socket. I'm going to presume the utility book actually shows it connected to the grounded conductor because that's the only thing that would make any sense. A GEC is well defined in Article 100 as the conductor connecting an electrode to equipment or a grounded conductor so you've definitely got a GEC. The electrode is not connected to an EGC because it's connected to the grounded conductor. Therefore it isn't an auxiliary electrode the way 250.54 talks about them. The POCO just made you install an additional rod, which is NEC compliant but not required.

 

[jot30]

The poco tells you to drive a rod and connect it the meter socket. I'm going to presume the utility book actually shows it connected to the grounded conductor because that's the only thing that would make any sense. A GEC is well defined in Article 100 as the conductor connecting an electrode to equipment or a grounded conductor so you've definitely got a GEC. The electrode is not connected to an EGC because it's connected to the grounded conductor. Therefore it isn't an auxiliary electrode the way 250.54 talks about them. The POCO just made you install an additional rod, which is NEC compliant but not required.

That was my point... utility requires one rod at the meter..and yes there is a neutral to case bond there, also required by our utility...so if that installed rod doesn't meet the NEC required 25ohm exception... should the second rod be supplemented...or because of the installed UFER it doesn't matter

 

[jot30]

That was my point... utility requires one rod at the meter..and yes there is a neutral to case bond there, also required by our utility...so if that installed rod doesn't meet the NEC required 25ohm exception... should the second rod be supplemented...or because of the installed UFER it doesn't matter

I meant... Should the single rod be supplemented

 

[wwhitney]

That was my point... utility requires one rod at the meter..and yes there is a neutral to case bond there, also required by our utility...so if that installed rod doesn't meet the NEC required 25ohm exception... should the second rod be supplemented

Yes.

...or because of the installed UFER it doesn't matter

The UFER is the supplement and satisfies 250.53(A)(2).

Cheers, Wayne

 

[david]

I meant... Should the single rod be supplemented

 

[david]

Sample of first energy's language

It would be helpful to know what your utility regulations says

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If the utility requires on rod then you can add another rod or add a ufer (CONCRETE ENCASED ELECTRODE ), or other electrodes.

The nec does not require a CEE to be supplemented at all. The code also states that all electrodes at the building must be used so a water pipe can be used also however, the water pipe requires 2 rods or one rod that meets the 25 ohm rule. It is easier to just add the extra rod if you didn't have a concrete encased electrode .

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That was my point... utility requires one rod at the meter..and yes there is a neutral to case bond there, also required by our utility...so if that installed rod doesn't meet the NEC required 25ohm exception... should the second rod be supplemented...or because of the installed UFER it doesn't matter

Our utility specifies two rods at the meter with the GEC from those rods terminated in the meter can, and all other GECs terminated at the neutral bar in the service equipment and also specifies that GECs from other electrodes shall not be connected to the two utility required ground rods.

If your utility is specifying one rod, and you have a concreted encased electrode, the code does not care about the use of that single rod, because the code does not require it.

 

[jot30]

Our utility specifies two rods at the meter with the GEC from those rods terminated in the meter can, and all other GECs terminated at the neutral bar in the service equipment and also specifies that GECs from other electrodes shall not be connected to the two utility required ground rods.

If your utility is specifying one rod, and you have a concreted encased electrode, the code does not care about the use of that single rod, because the code does not require it.

 

[jot30]

Thanks for the responses! It was helpful to apply the responses to the code requirements. Always appreciate the knowledge of all on this forum.