Is the GS1 series AC drive compatible with this motor?

[belae1ka]

I was told by my senior design adviser that the VFD chosen for a motor must be the same brand as the motor, I'm not sure I believe that.

Here is a link to the VFD;
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS1_(120_-z-_230_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)

Here is the link to the motor we plan on using;
https://www.mcmaster.com/#6136k671/=154ilst

What kind of specs should I look at when looking for compatibility? HP, amps, single/three phase, and voltage input?

Also, the motor specs state that the amps at full load is 0.8-0.8/0.4 Amps. I am confused with how this number is formatted, why is 0.8 divided by 0.4?

Thank you.

 

[ptonsparky]

I was told by my senior design adviser that the VFD chosen for a motor must be the same brand as the motor, I'm not sure I believe that.

Here is a link to the VFD;
https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Overview/Catalog/Drives/GS1_(120_-z-_230_VAC_V-z-Hz_Control)

Here is the link to the motor we plan on using;
https://www.mcmaster.com/#6136k671/=154ilst

What kind of specs should I look at when looking for compatibility? HP, amps, single/three phase, and voltage input?

Also, the motor specs state that the amps at full load is 0.8-0.8/0.4 Amps. I am confused with how this number is formatted, why is 0.8 divided by 0.4?

Thank you.

The / means the motor amps at the higher voltage.

The VFD does not need to be the same brand as the motor. HP and Voltage, Yes.

 

[belae1ka]

The / means the motor amps at the higher voltage.

The VFD does not need to be the same brand as the motor. HP and Voltage, Yes.

Thank you for the quick response Tom.

The VFD's input voltage is 230V/460V AC. In the shop that the VFD will be powered, the outlets are three phase 250V, 50Amps. Would the VFD work properly being powered through these outlets? In other words, is the 250V supply too much for the VFD? Or does this simply mean that the VFD would be fine considering the shop outlets are able to provide​ the necessary voltage?

 

[ptonsparky]

Thank you for the quick response Tom.

The VFD's input voltage is 230V/460V AC. In the shop that the VFD will be powered, the outlets are three phase 250V, 50Amps. Would the VFD work properly being powered through these outlets? In other words, is the 250V supply too much for the VFD? Or does this simply mean that the VFD would be fine considering the shop outlets are able to provide​ the necessary voltage?

Look at the VFD input Voltage again. They are not dual rated. Motors are. VFDs not.

 

[kwired]

Thank you for the quick response Tom.

The VFD's input voltage is 230V/460V AC. In the shop that the VFD will be powered, the outlets are three phase 250V, 50Amps. Would the VFD work properly being powered through these outlets? In other words, is the 250V supply too much for the VFD? Or does this simply mean that the VFD would be fine considering the shop outlets are able to provide​ the necessary voltage?

The drive is likely available in 230 volt and 460 volt models, but not dual voltage on the same unit.

Also I would guess that since your motor draws less then 1 amp, the drive likely needs a much lower maximum overcurrent protection on the supply circuit then what is on your 50 amp outlets.

 

[Jraef]

The concept of drives and motors being the same brand goes back to the earliest days of VFDs and the technology used back then, which required an impedance match between the motor and drive. That technology has not been used now for over 25 years and the concept has not been valid for as long.

What IS important however is that the motor be designed as capable of being used on an inverter drive. Some mfrs call that "Inverter Duty" however there is no official definition of that term. Still, it's important to pay attention to the details of how the motor is made and used. Typically you look for it to have higher than normal insulation in the windings, but at 230V that's not as important. You also want it to have either insulated bearings or a shaft grounding bushing, and if you want it to operate at less than 1/2 speed for any length of time, it often needs to have a separately powered lower to keep it cool.

The motor you linked to is TENV and that helps with the cooling issue, but they are very sparse with the specs on it so I would guess that it is NOT designed for use on an inverter drive.

 

[Besoeker]

I was told by my senior design adviser that the VFD chosen for a motor must be the same brand as the motor, I'm not sure I believe that.

You right not to believe that.
I've done plenty of systems where they were different brands. For example, we often used Vacon for VFDs and Vacon don't make motors.

 

[Johnnybob]

The drive is likely available in 230 volt and 460 volt models, but not dual voltage on the same unit.

Also I would guess that since your motor draws less then 1 amp, the drive likely needs a much lower maximum overcurrent protection on the supply circuit then what is on your 50 amp outlets.

I'm looking at the carton for an A-B drive I instaled last week. Input voltage is actually a rang 323-528 volts. First time Ive seen that, most drives in my experience are classed, as in 200V class, 400V class 500V etc.

 

[GoldDigger]

I'm looking at the carton for an A-B drive I instaled last week. Input voltage is actually a rang 323-528 volts. First time Ive seen that, most drives in my experience are classed, as in 200V class, 400V class 500V etc.

What probably does not show up on the basic labeling information is that the available output voltage to the motor will be limited based on what input voltage is supplied. For example, with a 323V AC input you are not going to be able to send full voltage to a 460 motor. As long as the rated output voltage is low enough, you can accept higher supply voltage up to the limits of the semiconductors and capacitors in the circuit.

 

[Jraef]

I'm looking at the carton for an A-B drive I instaled last week. Input voltage is actually a rang 323-528 volts. First time Ive seen that, most drives in my experience are classed, as in 200V class, 400V class 500V etc.

That range is the definition of "400V class". ROCKWELL doesn't use the voltage classes any more because people here got confused as to the meaning, thinking that 400V was the maximum and it wouldn't run on 480V. So they just call out that actual acceptable voltage range. 528V is 480 +10%, 323V is 380 - 15%. So it is really 380-480B, +10-15%.

What probably does not show up on the basic labeling information is that the available output voltage to the motor will be limited based on what input voltage is supplied. For example, with a 323V AC input you are not going to be able to send full voltage to a 460 motor. As long as the rated output voltage is low enough, you can accept higher supply voltage up to the limits of the semiconductors and capacitors in the circuit.

Absolutely correct. Input voltage = Max output voltage. But what that does mean is that the drive will not trip on under voltage so if the line voltage drops to 323V, you can still run a 460V 60Hz motor from that drive at the equivalent reduced speed of 323/460V, so 70% speed or 42Hz.

 

[belae1ka]

The concept of drives and motors being the same brand goes back to the earliest days of VFDs and the technology used back then, which required an impedance match between the motor and drive. That technology has not been used now for over 25 years and the concept has not been valid for as long.

What IS important however is that the motor be designed as capable of being used on an inverter drive. Some mfrs call that "Inverter Duty" however there is no official definition of that term. Still, it's important to pay attention to the details of how the motor is made and used. Typically you look for it to have higher than normal insulation in the windings, but at 230V that's not as important. You also want it to have either insulated bearings or a shaft grounding bushing, and if you want it to operate at less than 1/2 speed for any length of time, it often needs to have a separately powered lower to keep it cool.

The motor you linked to is TENV and that helps with the cooling issue, but they are very sparse with the specs on it so I would guess that it is NOT designed for use on an inverter drive.

Do you perhaps have any recommendations as to what kind of motor would be a good match for my given conditions? As long as the motor is 1,750RPM it should be okay.

The conditions being:
-The three phase 250V, 50Amp outlet
-The VFD (I have decided that I am going to use the DURApulse GS3-21P0 VFD) here is a link if you would like to check it out; https://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs3drives.pdf

I am worried the 50Amps provided by the outlet will damage the VFD, perhaps buying fuses for the VFD would solve this issue? Considering the motor I end up going with will only be most likely a couple Amps max at full load I do not know how I would safely wire everything for the VFD and the motor with the provided shop three phase outlet.

I feel as if I have a big responsibility in my group for my senior design project and I have no prior experience with large motors and VFD's, so I really appreciate all the help man.

 

[belae1ka]

That range is the definition of "400V class". ROCKWELL doesn't use the voltage classes any more because people here got confused as to the meaning, thinking that 400V was the maximum and it wouldn't run on 480V. So they just call out that actual acceptable voltage range. 528V is 480 +10%, 323V is 380 - 15%. So it is really 380-480B, +10-15%.


Absolutely correct. Input voltage = Max output voltage. But what that does mean is that the drive will not trip on under voltage so if the line voltage drops to 323V, you can still run a 460V 60Hz motor from that drive at the equivalent reduced speed of 323/460V, so 70% speed or 42Hz.

Input voltage = Max output voltage. Does this mean that the Input voltage going into the VFD will be 200V-240V even though the three phase outlet used in the shop is 250V? The max output voltage of the Durapulse GS3 VFD I am going to use is "three-phase 200-240V".

 

[kwired]

Do you perhaps have any recommendations as to what kind of motor would be a good match for my given conditions? As long as the motor is 1,750RPM it should be okay.

The conditions being:
-The three phase 250V, 50Amp outlet
-The VFD (I have decided that I am going to use the DURApulse GS3-21P0 VFD) here is a link if you would like to check it out; https://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/gs3drives.pdf

I am worried the 50Amps provided by the outlet will damage the VFD, perhaps buying fuses for the VFD would solve this issue? Considering the motor I end up going with will only be most likely a couple Amps max at full load I do not know how I would safely wire everything for the VFD and the motor with the provided shop three phase outlet.

I feel as if I have a big responsibility in my group for my senior design project and I have no prior experience with large motors and VFD's, so I really appreciate all the help man.

It should run any three phase induction motor that doesn't exceed the power rating of the drive and with matching voltage/frequency or at proper V/f ratio - in other words a 460 volt 60 Hz motor could run on a drive with only 230 volts maximum output - but only at 30Hz maximum.

50 amp outlet wont put too much power into the drive - the drive draws what is demanded from it. Though most drives are pretty well internally protected from overload, if the front end of the drive should develop a fault, you may have less damages if you only have a 5 or 10 amp fuse on a smaller rated drive. Fuse specifications and available fault current do come into play here as well though.

 

[belae1ka]

It should run any three phase induction motor that doesn't exceed the power rating of the drive and with matching voltage/frequency or at proper V/f ratio - in other words a 460 volt 60 Hz motor could run on a drive with only 230 volts maximum output - but only at 30Hz maximum.

50 amp outlet wont put too much power into the drive - the drive draws what is demanded from it. Though most drives are pretty well internally protected from overload, if the front end of the drive should develop a fault, you may have less damages if you only have a 5 or 10 amp fuse on a smaller rated drive. Fuse specifications and available fault current do come into play here as well though.

Thanks for the advice, the VFD I plan on getting has a fuse kit (3 fuses) that can be bought to install in the drive. The fuse rating is 300V @ 25Amps so I should be all set.

Cheers:thumbsup:

 

[kwired]

Thanks for the advice, the VFD I plan on getting has a fuse kit (3 fuses) that can be bought to install in the drive. The fuse rating is 300V @ 25Amps so I should be all set.

Cheers:thumbsup:

Just so you know it is likely just a fuse block and fuses that you will need to mount in your own enclosure - there won't be space within the drive for them. You certainly don't need a 25 amp fuse for a drive/motor combination that draws less then an amp, but I think they are after the current limiting characteristics of the fuse more then the trip point when they prefer that particular fuse type to be in the supply line, I sort of wonder if you still don't need a lower setting on some device there.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
Absolutely correct. Input voltage = Max output voltage. But what that does mean is that the drive will not trip on under voltage so if the line voltage drops to 323V, you can still run a 460V 60Hz motor from that drive at the equivalent reduced speed of 323/460V, so 70% speed or 42Hz.

ABB has a few very small drives (1.5 hp or less) where the input voltage is single phase 120 volts and the output is 3 phase 230 volts.

 

[kwired]

ABB has a few very small drives (1.5 hp or less) where the input voltage is single phase 120 volts and the output is 3 phase 230 volts.

I saw a drive for a 20 hp motor one time that was 240 single phase in and 480 three phase out, no transformers other then maybe small control transformer within the unit either.

 

[Jraef]

I saw a drive for a 20 hp motor one time that was 240 single phase in and 480 three phase out, no transformers other then maybe small control transformer within the unit either.

That company has lost their ability to do that and apply a UL listing to it. They were (are) taking a standard Hitachi 480V VFD and replacing the rectifier with one sized for 230V and adding a large "voltage doubler circuit" arrangement on the DC side to take the 335VDC from the 230V rectification up to 670VDC to feed into the transistors. Hitachi forced them to stop doing this with their name attached to it because they were allowing users to believe the UL listing of the original Hitachi drive was covering their internal modifications, and they were not. They still do it, they just don't imply it's UL listed any more and Hitachi's name has been scrubbed from all components so they will not have to support them afterward.

The ironic part was that the cost of a voltage doubler circuit for a 20HP motor exceeded the cost of a simple transformer ahead of the drive. People bought them because they perceived it was a simpler solution, but in reality it was not. That voltage doubler is how everyone else does it for the small drives, but at 2HP and up the cost for that already exceeds the cost of a transformer by quite a bit.

 

[Jraef]

Input voltage = Max output voltage. Does this mean that the Input voltage going into the VFD will be 200V-240V even though the three phase outlet used in the shop is 250V? The max output voltage of the Durapulse GS3 VFD I am going to use is "three-phase 200-240V".

I seriously doubt you have 250VAC in your shop and if you do, it's a problem that someone should address. I suspect that you are reading the face of the outlet on the wall that says "250V". That does not mean there IS 250V there, it means the DEVICE is rated for a maximum of 250VAC, which is a common NEMA specification. Standard distribution voltages are 208V or 240V, utilities are allowed to be +5% so in theory you MIGHT read 252V on a bad day at the service connection, but should read lower at the end use point because of voltage drop. But at the same time when a piece of equipment is rated for a voltage, it is generally rated +-10%, starting with a slightly lower value, for example 230V rating for use with 240V (again, expecting a voltage drop). so 230V +10% = 253V, still within the worst case scenario for the utility voltage. Your VFD will be rated like this. Bottom line, don't sweat it.

Personally I hate that brand of drive, but they are cheap. If you want cheap and are going to buy from AutomationDestruct anyway, just get their Marathon Inverter Duty motor too.

 

[kwired]

That company has lost their ability to do that and apply a UL listing to it. They were (are) taking a standard Hitachi 480V VFD and replacing the rectifier with one sized for 230V and adding a large "voltage doubler circuit" arrangement on the DC side to take the 335VDC from the 230V rectification up to 670VDC to feed into the transistors. Hitachi forced them to stop doing this with their name attached to it because they were allowing users to believe the UL listing of the original Hitachi drive was covering their internal modifications, and they were not. They still do it, they just don't imply it's UL listed any more and Hitachi's name has been scrubbed from all components so they will not have to support them afterward.

The ironic part was that the cost of a voltage doubler circuit for a 20HP motor exceeded the cost of a simple transformer ahead of the drive. People bought them because they perceived it was a simpler solution, but in reality it was not. That voltage doubler is how everyone else does it for the small drives, but at 2HP and up the cost for that already exceeds the cost of a transformer by quite a bit.

That was quite some time ago that I encountered it, I don't recall what the name on the drive was anymore, but pretty certain it was not Automation Direct. Might have even been before Automation Direct existed, was definitely before I ever heard of them.

Happened to be for the village water system and was driving a submersible well - this village did not even have three phase primary distribution and is the reason they needed to convert single to three phase with it, more so then they needed variable speed functionality.