Is this an NEC violation?

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Coppersmith

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
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Electrical Contractor
Homeowner wants a light outside on a block and stucco wall but doesn't want to pay to have the box cut into the wall.

Can a pancake box be surface mounted and the fixture mounted on top of box leaving a 1/2" gap from fixture base to wall?

Would caulking to fill the gap be required to make it compliant?

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Background: When doing new construction it's common to use a pancake box mounted on the outside block and then stucco around it to make the box flush. No special weather sealing is required as AFAIK. These boxes are not weatherproof.
 
I'd say no, but there are siding blocks that are boxes and some can contain pancake boxes, and there are surface-mount boxes that would work as well.

Look in the vinyl siding department at your local orange or blue store, and in Arlingtom's catalog.
 
LarryFine said:
I'd say no, but there are siding blocks that are boxes and some can contain pancake boxes, and there are surface-mount boxes that would work as well.

Look in the vinyl siding department at your local orange or blue store, and in Arlingtom's catalog.
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He said block and stucco. No the installation you suggested would not comply. You could surface mount a round bell box.
 
cowboyjwc said:
He said block and stucco. No the installation you suggested would not comply. You could surface mount a round bell box.
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Do you know which NEC section it would violate?

Also, the fixture base is larger than a round bell box so it would not be weatherproof.

What if I put a medallion or block over the box so the fixture sat flush?
 
cowboyjwc said:
He said block and stucco. No the installation you suggested would not comply. You could surface mount a round bell box.
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John, if metal-pancake box not listed for outdoors, is subject to condensation/corrosion, can a PVC pancake box be used?

Can a PVC pancake box be used on top of masonry with that Arlington PVC Siding-box cover?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-Gang-8-cu-in-Shallow-Ceiling-Fan-Box-B708-SHK/100196694

The Arlington product is PVC, won't react with masonry, 3/4" deep, accommodates 3" & 4" width boxes, and listed sealants can fill gaps.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Arlingt...-PVC-Mega-Siding-Box-Cover-8100LP-1/202245808

Can AHJ's approve equipment per 90.7 field inspection, without requiring a NRTL "field labeled" evaluation report per 110.3(C)?
 
Is it Driveit or real Stucco? How thick to the block?
Take a carbide hole saw and cut it in, it will anchor better and if no light is there now I drill a pilot hole. Not like you are doing any more than normal; unless I'm missing something.
 
How much time does it take to set the pancake box in? I would not let the homeowner dictate how a job should be when it comes to having your name on it. Tell him I have to set it in or get the arlington box. I am sure he doesn't want to pay for that either.

Sorry I get really tired of homeowners wanting everything but not wanting to pay for it. Do they go to their doctor and ask for a cheap check up? I doubt it.
 
Coppersmith said:
Do you know which NEC section it would violate?

Also, the fixture base is larger than a round bell box so it would not be weatherproof.

What if I put a medallion or block over the box so the fixture sat flush?
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Most fixtures I have seen will not sit flush even with a pancake box and a pancake box is not listed for damp or wet location. A medallion might work.
 
cowboyjwc said:
Most fixtures I have seen will not sit flush even with a pancake box and a pancake box is not listed for damp or wet location. A medallion might work.
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Then your logic should apply to any box that is flush in that same wall.

A round bell box is only wet location rated when used with a wet location cover and gasket. And even then it gets condensation inside at times.

Any typical outdoor "wall fixture" intended to go over a "flush box", is the "closure" for the box. If it doesn't fit tight to the mounting surface you not only get possible moisture in the box/behind the fixture, you also have openings for bugs or even rodents to enter. Nothing like pulling a fixture off the wall and finding an active wasp nest behind it.
 
kwired said:
Then your logic should apply to any box that is flush in that same wall.

A round bell box is only wet location rated when used with a wet location cover and gasket. And even then it gets condensation inside at times.

Any typical outdoor "wall fixture" intended to go over a "flush box", is the "closure" for the box. If it doesn't fit tight to the mounting surface you not only get possible moisture in the box/behind the fixture, you also have openings for bugs or even rodents to enter. Nothing like pulling a fixture off the wall and finding an active wasp nest behind it.
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He's talking about surface mounting the pancake box and I'm saying that many of the fixtures I've tried to use on a pancake box won't cover it. Putting a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of caulk around it, is not the solution.
 
cowboyjwc said:
He's talking about surface mounting the pancake box and I'm saying that many of the fixtures I've tried to use on a pancake box won't cover it. Putting a 1/4 to 1/2 inch of caulk around it, is not the solution.
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I've seen some that won't sit with the fixture base flat to the wall but most will and with those after completed you have no idea if it has a flush, surface or no box at all behind it.
 
kwired said:
I've seen some that won't sit with the fixture base flat to the wall but most will and with those after completed you have no idea if it has a flush, surface or no box at all behind it.
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I was simply answering the question as it was asked, if it covers it then he's fine.
 
kwired said:
OK, now go back to post 3 and start the loop all over again:D
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Ha, okay I thought I read through the thread more carefully. Anyway...

I kinda don't believe that a proper outdoor box can't be found for a legit fixture. Y'all know that stucco isn't really waterproof, right? So cinching the fixture down to a stucco surface ain't gonna really be code compliant either most likely. If the fixture can't be installed over an appropriate gasket that seals a bell box opening then maybe you gotta tell the customer to get a different fixture.:slaphead:
 
I would like to repeat that using a pancake box surface-mounted to block which is then stucco'ed around is standard practice on new construction and is acceptable to the inspectors. I'm not sure of it's code legality. Yes, it's not weatherproof. In fact, water can easily drip down the wall and get between the fixture and the box. I have never seen a bell box used in new construction for this purpose. I've only seen Bell boxes used for retrofit and eave installations.

Sinking a pancake box into an existing stuccoed wall is not easy and in fact is prone to disaster which is why I gave the HO a choice since I must charge at least an extra hour to do it. Using a 4" masonry hole saw makes nice edges but you can only go down a 1/2" and then you have to chip out the concrete very flat on the bottom. There is a danger of having the entire back fall out since you are chipping over the top of a block core and then there is nothing to support the box. A cut in box won't work (especially a blue one) because the lip will show from behind some fixtures and again, not weatherproof.
 
Coppersmith said:
I would like to repeat that using a pancake box surface-mounted to block which is then stucco'ed around is standard practice on new construction and is acceptable to the inspectors. I'm not sure of it's code legality. Yes, it's not weatherproof. In fact, water can easily drip down the wall and get between the fixture and the box. I have never seen a bell box used in new construction for this purpose. I've only seen Bell boxes used for retrofit and eave installations.

Sinking a pancake box into an existing stuccoed wall is not easy and in fact is prone to disaster which is why I gave the HO a choice since I must charge at least an extra hour to do it. Using a 4" masonry hole saw makes nice edges but you can only go down a 1/2" and then you have to chip out the concrete very flat on the bottom. There is a danger of having the entire back fall out since you are chipping over the top of a block core and then there is nothing to support the box. A cut in box won't work (especially a blue one) because the lip will show from behind some fixtures and again, not weatherproof.
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Yeah see, as Bandit said to frog, When you tell somebody somethin', it depends on what part of the country you're standin' in... as to just how dumb you are. We don't do that kind of construction around here so we don't have that problem.
 
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