Is this tap permitted?

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George Stolz

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Question via VM:

im at a job wich shows to tap into existing 225a panel wich still has a 150a load on it , and feed new 225a panel with 4# 4/0, 1#4g. total conneted va27879 in new panel. is this tap permitted
 
Question via VM:

im at a job wich shows to tap into existing 225a panel wich still has a 150a load on it , and feed new 225a panel with 4# 4/0, 1#4g. total conneted va27879 in new panel. is this tap permitted

I think additional information is required, especially what load the original panel was designed to handle. There is nothing in the information you preseented that says there is anything "wrong" with it, but there is not enough information to make an actual judgement on it.
 
There is a fundamental principle of engineering that says a calculation?s final answer cannot be expressed to a higher degree of precision than the input information. In this context, ?precision? has to do with rounding to the nearest whole number of units. For example, suppose you need to measure the distance across a building, in order to estimate the amount of wire you will need for a home run. One way might be to walk across the building, and count your steps. Another might be to break out a long tape measure that has markings every sixteenth of an inch. In the first case, you might count out 116 steps, then say that one of your steps is about 2.5 feet, and conclude the distance is about 290 feet. In the second case, you might measure a distance of 284 feet, 14 inches, plus 3 sixteenths of an inch. This equates to a total of 54,755 sixteenths of an inch. The second reading is more ?precise,? because it is using units of measure that are smaller (i.e., you are rounding to the nearest sixteenth of an inch, as opposed to rounding to the nearest number of 2.5 foot-long steps).

You would be outside the rules of good engineering practice, if you were to take your first measurement, multiply 290 times 12 and times 16, and say the distance is 55,680 sixteenths of an inch. This would be invalid because you cannot tell whether any given step was exactly 2.5 feet, and not 2.49 feet, and not 2.51 feet. Your degree of precision, when you made the measurement, was no better than the nearest half foot or so. Your degree of precision, when you made the second measurement, was as good as the nearest sixteenth of an inch.

I bring this up because I cringed when I saw the two numbers, 150 amps, and 27879VA. The first number is precise to about the nearest 5 amps. The second number is precise to the nearest single VA, or the nearest 0.0042 amps (assuming a 240V single phase system). So I don?t buy the situation at all.

Bob?s statement was simpler, but similar. How did you arrive at the number 150 amps?

To the above, I will add one more question: Are we talking single phase or three phase?
 
Question via VM:

im at a job wich shows to tap into existing 225a panel wich still has a 150a load on it , and feed new 225a panel with 4# 4/0, 1#4g. total conneted va27879 in new panel. is this tap permitted


Correct me if I'm wrong but a #4/0 backed up by a 225 amp OCPD is not a tap.
 
Probably not enough info.

If 27879 w / 208 v / 1.73 =77 a + 150 a = 227 amps on 4/0 @ 75 deg = 230 a.

No if fed from 225 panel / breaker.
Yes if new panel is MB, tapped to 4/0 or greater and larger than 225 a upstream.
 
existing panel 1 feed old bar branch circuits wich is demo. resturaunt circuits remain in panel 1 . I put an amp meter on each phase of feeder wire and came up with 150a. 120/208v 3 phase. plans now call for j-box to be cut in and tap into existing panel 1 feeder wire to feed panel 1 along with panel 2.panel 2 demand amps 63.9a with total va 27879. how do i determine if 4/0 wire is sized to carry load of panel 1&2 and if a 225a panel is big enough to carry the two loads...
 
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I put an amp meter on each phase of feeder wire and came up with 150a.
Mike, welcome to the forum. :)

An ampclamp does not a load calculation make. You need to do a load calculation to determine the existing loads. The reason being, are you sure all the loads on the panel were on?
 
existing panel 1 feed old bar branch circuits wich is demo. resturaunt circuits remain in panel 1 . I put an amp meter on each phase of feeder wire and came up with 150a. 120/208v 3 phase. plans now call for j-box to be cut in and tap into existing panel 1 feeder wire to feed panel 1 along with panel 2.panel 2 demand amps 63.9a with total va 27879. how do i determine if 4/0 wire is sized to carry load of panel 1&2 and if a 225a panel is big enough to carry the two loads...



Mike
1. Is the splice ("tap") you are contemplating occuring before the first panel?

2. What size is the conductor you are splicing to?

3. If the conductor you are splicing to is the same size as the 4/0, it is a splice and not a tap. Like splicing 12 AWG in a box as you run from one receptacle to the next.

4. What is the size of the overcurrent device ahead of (supplying) panel #1?
 
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