Island with Overhang GFCI Question

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iwire said:
I don't know about being better or safer but I am not sure how a cord and plug connected one gets around 400.8(1). :smile:


Hey wait, what side of this did I argue last time. :grin:
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Okay, were not going to argue this one again, but if there is no other way to get one there I would say yeah. However, here is an alternative-- see I am being constructive here--

Put one of these babies in on the front face of the cabinet--- if there is space. They come in black or white. I have used them and they are a breeze to install. Sillites Link

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A Question of Intent

A Question of Intent

charlie b said:
I am not sure what is being suggested here. But let me offer the opinion that you cannot put a receptacle 6 inches from the front surface of a countertop that extends 12 inches beyond its base, and call it good. The code does not say that the receptacle must be within 6 inches of the front edge. It says that if the top extends more than 6 inches from the base, a receptacle cannot go there.
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Charlie, unless I missed it, the OP did not say if the island was flat across it's entire surface with no backsplashes, but think it might be the case since the location of the receptacle is at issue.

I am refering to the exception for 210.52(C)(5)

Let's not just simply say that a receptacle cannot go there because it's a 12" overhang without considering the intent of the six inch limitation. If we are allowed to place a receptacle with an overhang of six inches, why? I have always understood this to be due the the length of countertop applliance cords. What are they 18" or so.? Anything beyond that places the appliance too close to the edge?

So, if they build a so called chase for bringing the receptacle to within 6" of the overhang can it be safely said that the intent of the code has been satisfied, without having to install a pop up recep that will wow all the guests?
 
K8MHZ said:
As I read it you can put one there, it just does not satisfy the requirement for a required receptacle.
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As I read it, placement of a receptacle there (i.e., below an overhang in excess of 6 inches) is forbidden.
 
frizbeedog said:
If we are allowed to place a receptacle with an overhang of six inches, why? I have always understood this to be due the the length of countertop applliance cords. What are they 18" or so.? Anything beyond that places the appliance too close to the edge?
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That certainly is a reasonable consideration. But I don't think it tells the whole story. I think if an overhang is 6 inches or less, the owner is not likely to place bar stools below it. A 12 inch overhang might breed bar stools. Now you have legs and maybe arms in the vicinity of where the cords are dangling over the edge. Forget the nondescript kid in an earlier post; I don't want a crock pot of stew in my lap, if I trip against the cord while standing up from the bar stool.

That of course is just a guess. I do not know the actual reasoning behind the decision to include the 6 inch restriction. But I do believe the words, as presently written, only take into account the distance from the edge of countertop surface and the face of the base cabinet.
 
charlie b said:
As I read it, placement of a receptacle there (i.e., below an overhang in excess of 6 inches) is forbidden.
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Charlie, suppose I have a wall clock 25" above the countertop. Would you say I cannot install a receptacle for that either?
 
charlie b said:

..... I do not know the actual reasoning behind the decision to include the 6 inch restriction.....
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It goes right to the 24" kitchen countertop receptacle rule. Most counters are 24" deep, so appliance manufacturers use 24" (or less) cords, to prevent a plugged-in appliances from going off the edge. If you have any more than a 6" overhang, you end up with an appliance plugged in, yet teetering on the edge.
 
This really is not the electricians problem to figure out.
The general contractor has to provide a place for you to install the receptacle.
If he builds a wall six foot wide filled with duct work and plumbing, you still have to have a receptacle. It's his responsibility to make room for it.
 
georgestolz said:
Charlie, suppose I have a wall clock 25" above the countertop. Would you say I cannot install a receptacle for that either?
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I would not. But then, you would not be within the scope of 210.52(C), "Countertops," for that installation.
 
charlie b said:
As I read it, placement of a receptacle there (i.e., below an overhang in excess of 6 inches) is forbidden.
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I believe George caught you in your own rule. It says what it says and you said it was forbidden....:grin:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I believe George caught you in your own rule. It says what it says and you said it was forbidden....:grin:
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Sorry, Dennis. I don't get the comment. Or perhaps it is the joke that I don't get. :-?

There is a rule about receptacles under a countertop. If it has an overhang of more than 6 inches, you can't put a receptacle under it. But there is no similar rule about putting a receptacle over a countertop that has an excessive overhang. The relevant rule is that if it is not within 20 inches of the counter surface, then it doesn't count as being among those that serve the countertop. If you want to supply a clock instead, you are welcome to do so.

Or am I missing something? :confused:
 
charlie b said:
Sorry, Dennis. I don't get the comment. Or perhaps it is the joke that I don't get. :-?

There is a rule about receptacles under a countertop. If it has an overhang of more than 6 inches, you can't put a receptacle under it. But there is no similar rule about putting a receptacle over a countertop that has an excessive overhang. The relevant rule is that if it is not within 20 inches of the counter surface, then it doesn't count as being among those that serve the countertop. If you want to supply a clock instead, you are welcome to do so.

Or am I missing something? :confused:
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I think what George was saying is that you can put the receptacle on an island below the top but , of course, it would not count as the required outlet. Thus his analogy to the clock outlet.

Maybe I am missing something. You said it was forbidden if the overhang is more than 6" when in fact it is not forbidden but it would count as the required outlet.
 
A couple of years ago, we wired a kitchen remodel that included a large (about 6' x 8') island with a 12" overhang on all four sides.

The solution: no island receptacle at all. It was considered to be a stationary table.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
You said it was forbidden if the overhang is more than 6" when in fact it is not forbidden but it would (NOT?) count as the required outlet.
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This has been debated before; I maintain the opinion that it is forbidden. I will say, however, that the point turns on one's interpretation of "for countertop spaces," as that phrase is used in the opening sentence of 210.52(C). I think that anything within "the box" that is an island counts as being "for countertop spaces." If you think instead that once you are more than 12 inches below the countertop you are no longer talking about "countertop spaces" (note that that is different than the single word "countertop"), then my notion of a prohibition disappears.
 
A Brief Summary

A Brief Summary

In the end we'd have to say that NEC requires an outlet at the island. Classification of it being a table seems a bit of a stretch, but whatever the determination, technology, industry, and simple communication between installers and builders, will prevent this from becomming a continung debate....mabey.

Educate your builders and comply with the intent of the NEC. In a perfect world.....

Thanks Charlie and 480sparky for your comments on the why behind the rule. Those are always helpfull and only add to understanding. :smile:
 
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I am not sure I read this right but here is my suggetion.

Extend the top 3" of the support base in a catilever fashion (2x4's mounted under the countertop) to within 6 inches of the edge of the countertop. Put the needed recepticle(s) inside this extension.

This does not mean you have to extend the entire cabinet out, just the base that the countertop connects too. It will cover those brackets and still be "seatable" or usable with wheel chair.

Most of what drives the >12" rule is dangling cords and the loss of effective lenght of corded appliances. This eliments both problems while still maintaining knee room under the cabinet and it looks good when done right. You can even use the granite as the the surface for the extension "box".
 
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charlie b said:
Sorry, Dennis. I don't get the comment. Or perhaps it is the joke that I don't get. :-?

There is a rule about receptacles under a countertop. If it has an overhang of more than 6 inches, you can't put a receptacle under it.
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I disagree - if we look at the wording we're basing our opinions on

(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall
be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above,
the countertop.

(snip)

Exception to (5): To comply with the conditions specified in
(1) or (2), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be
mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop.
Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance
with this exception shall not be located where the
countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its
support base.
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These are the key sentences. Now, if you believe that a receptacle installed under a countertop under an overhang is prohibited then the mechanism doing that is the first sentence of 210.52(C)(5). The receptacle shall be zero to twenty inches above the countertop.

If this section would require the receptacle to magically hover midair, then the exception allows it to be below - If you're doing this in accordance with the exception as indicated, then the receptacle can't be under a 7" overhang.

IMO, if you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound.
  • If you believe the exception to 210.52(C)(5) applies only to receptacles installed to comply with countertop requirements, then an extraneous receptacle installed outside those requirements isn't governed by those rules. You can also install a receptacle over 20" from the counter's surface, because it is being installed for other reasons, not for countertop use.
  • If you believe the exception to (5) forbids you from installing a receptacle under the overhang for any reason, then you must also adhere to the first sentence of (5). If you believe this, then the first sentence of 210.52(C)(5) is forbidding you from installing any receptacle over 20" above a countertop, so the clock receptacle would be illegal.
Does that make sense?

IMO, the context of section (C) is, "receptacles installed to serve counter spaces." (210.52(C)). If any receptacles are installed for any other reasons, then these rules (in C) don't apply.
 
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