This question might seem ridiculous, but it's the first time this has happened to me in the LA and OC area of California. I “failed the inspection” in the city of La Verne, CA. The inspector told me that grounding with the Ufer and bonding the hot and cold water lines isn’t enough. He wants me to also ground to the city's main water pipe. I’m not sure why he’s requiring this correction. Can someone explain or help me understand? Thanks.
Issue with Ufer Grounding
- Thread starter renebp01
- Start date
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If the water line is copper or metal coming into the building then you must connect the grounding electrode conductor to the water line within 5' of it entering the building. That is all that is needed unless the city has an amendment. It sounds like you didn't connect the grounding electrode conductor within the 5' of entering the building.
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
In California, at least 20 years ago, they required us to ground the cold water, hot water and gas pipes together with a #6 wire. This was required everywhere in residential applications in the greater bay area. It was one of those things you just couldn't fight.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
From the sound of it he bonded the water lines but did he make the connection within 5'. I assume that's the issue but until he responds we wont know.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
Does the water pipe qualify as an electrode? If so then as Dennis stated it must connected as part of the GES. This is a NEC requirement.
curt swartz
Senior Member
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Where is the water meter? In California they are typically at the street in public right-away. The pipe from the meter to the building must be bonded if it is metal. As Dennis said the bond must be with in 5" of the entrance to the building.
If the water pipe is plastic you are not required to run a wire to the meter at the street.
If the water pipe is plastic you are not required to run a wire to the meter at the street.
Strathead
Senior Member
- Location
- Ocala, Florida, USA
- Occupation
- Electrician/Estimator/Project Manager/Superintendent
I agree, but is the incoming water pipe, truly metal. You don't see that often today.
Joe.B
Senior Member
- Location
- Myrtletown Ca
- Occupation
- Building Inspector
Here's some code references for you:
2022 California Electrical Code
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(l) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none
of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding
electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be
installed and used.
Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings
or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding
electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not
accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or
more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and
electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding
around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of
connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding
conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. If used as a grounding
electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements
of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the
bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water
meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground
water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8).
If the supplemental electrode is of the rod, pipe, or plate type,
it shall comply with 250.53(A). The supplemental electrode
shall be bonded to one of the following:
(1) Grounding electrode conductor
(2) Grounded service-entrance conductor
(3) Nonflexible grounded service raceway
(4) Any grounded service enclosure
(5) As provided by 250.32(B)
Exception: The supplemental electrode shall be permitted
to be bonded to the interior metal water piping as specified in
250.68(C)(1).
250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding
Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes. The connection
of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at
each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or
branch circuit(s), or at each separately derived system and associ-
ated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A)
through (C).
(C)(1) Interior metal water piping that is electrically continuous
with a metal underground water pipe electrode and is
located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of
entrance to the building shall be permitted to extend the
connection to an electrode(s). Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance
to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect
electrodes of the grounding electrode system.
2022 California Electrical Code
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(l) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system. Where none
of these grounding electrodes exist, one or more of the grounding
electrodes specified in 250.52(A)(4) through (A)(8) shall be
installed and used.
Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings
or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding
electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are not
accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
250.52 Grounding Electrodes.
(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.
(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground
water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or
more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and
electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding
around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of
connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding
conductor(s) or jumper(s), if installed.
250.53 Grounding Electrode System Installation.
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. If used as a grounding
electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements
of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the
bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water
meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
(2) Supplemental Electrode Required. A metal underground
water pipe shall be supplemented by an additional
electrode of a type specified in 250.52(A)(2) through (A)(8).
If the supplemental electrode is of the rod, pipe, or plate type,
it shall comply with 250.53(A). The supplemental electrode
shall be bonded to one of the following:
(1) Grounding electrode conductor
(2) Grounded service-entrance conductor
(3) Nonflexible grounded service raceway
(4) Any grounded service enclosure
(5) As provided by 250.32(B)
Exception: The supplemental electrode shall be permitted
to be bonded to the interior metal water piping as specified in
250.68(C)(1).
250.68 Grounding Electrode Conductor and Bonding
Jumper Connection to Grounding Electrodes. The connection
of a grounding electrode conductor at the service, at
each building or structure where supplied by a feeder(s) or
branch circuit(s), or at each separately derived system and associ-
ated bonding jumper(s) shall be made as specified 250.68(A)
through (C).
(C)(1) Interior metal water piping that is electrically continuous
with a metal underground water pipe electrode and is
located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of
entrance to the building shall be permitted to extend the
connection to an electrode(s). Interior metal water piping
located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance
to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect
electrodes of the grounding electrode system.
jaggedben
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern California
- Occupation
- Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Even if the underground water pipe isn't metal, metal water pipe inside the building must be bonded to the electrical system. It's unclear in the OP if the pipes are bonded to the electrical or just to each other.
First of all, I thank everyone who helped.My question is in article 250.52.
I don't understand this correction from the inspector. I've done similar work on all my jobs, and I've never received a correction like this.
Article 250 tells me that Ufer is sufficient.
I don't know whether to appeal the correction or not. (It's just the inspector's whim, that's what I think). I'll have to lose around $1500 just to open the walls, run 4-gauge bare copper grounding wire, patch the walls, close the walls, and re-tint them, since the homeowner isn't at fault, right?
NEC 250.52(A), such as:
- Metal building frame
- Ufer ground (concrete-encased)
- Ground ring
- Rod/pipe electrodes
- Plate electrodes
- Other made electrodes
This describes a grounding electrode consisting of:
- At least 20 feet of
- Bare copper conductor #4 AWG or larger, or
- Steel reinforcing bar (rebar) ½ inch or larger,
- Encased in at least 2 inches of concrete,
- In direct contact with the earth.
Joe.B
Senior Member
- Location
- Myrtletown Ca
- Occupation
- Building Inspector
You are correct in part, but maybe you're not seeing the whole picture.
250.50 Grounding Electrode System. All grounding electrodes
as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) that are
present at each building or structure served shall be bonded
together to form the grounding electrode system.
The CEE is present as a qualifying electrode, it "shall be bonded" as part of the GES. If you also have a water pipe present that qualifies per 250.52(A)(1), then that also needs to be bonded as part of your GES.
Joe.B
Senior Member
- Location
- Myrtletown Ca
- Occupation
- Building Inspector
And why would you need to open up walls? Yes, it needs to be bonded, but there's no reason you'd need to open wall to do so.
Hi Dennis, yes, the water line is 1 1/2 inch copper and it enters the residence at 9 feet.
NEC Inspector
Senior Member
- Location
- Kansas
- Occupation
- Inspector
250.50 says that all electrodes present must be bonded together. If an underground metal water pipe is present that complies with 250.52, it is an electrode and it needs to be bonded into your grounding electrode system, regardless of how many "sufficient" electrodes are present. That is the nationally accepted mainstream interpretation. The Ufer could stand alone as a grounding electrode in a house that has no other electrodes present - but if they are present, they need to be bonded together.
Often, we run into a situation where we show up at an older house for a new service, and ask to see the water pipe bond. The electrician replies that they didn't mess with the water line, they just drove two ground rods because that is all you need. They would be right, except for 250.50 - the water pipe is present and must be bonded to the other electrodes.
Often, we run into a situation where we show up at an older house for a new service, and ask to see the water pipe bond. The electrician replies that they didn't mess with the water line, they just drove two ground rods because that is all you need. They would be right, except for 250.50 - the water pipe is present and must be bonded to the other electrodes.
If the water service is in a wall or basement ceiling to be rocked or buried by whatever we typically use a 2-gang 'mud ring' to provide access to the water pipe clamp, I think thats NEC 250.68(A)
Joe Thanks: The main water line meter is 55 feet away at the front house, and the Homeowners Association does not allow anything to be exposed in front of the residences
Joe.B
Senior Member
- Location
- Myrtletown Ca
- Occupation
- Building Inspector
What does the water line meter 55 feet away have to do with you bonding the qualifying electrode at the building? Not trying to be combative as it might sound, I'm genuinely curious.
- Location
- New Jersey
- Occupation
- Journeyman Electrician (retired)
The water pipe is an electrode so there is nothing to appeal. The inspector is correct in requiring you to include it as part of the GES. You can run the GEC on the outside of the structure or underground in route to the water pipe entry. Pop out at the panel run the GEC on the outside or underground and pop back in where the water pipe enters and connect within 5'
Yeah metallic water services are a pain on service change outs, I know that pain, we had a service change on multi family building some years back, no basement, no attic, crawlspace was very tight, the we had to do quite a bit of work to reach the water service, including pumping water out of a pit. Its much much easier to when the service is PEX and 250.104(B) bond. I prefer to hit the cold/hot at the water heater.
I remember asking an inspector for a waiver to just do 250.104(B) and it was a game of 'if it was used as a electrode in the past you need to prove its not an electrode anymore.' If you live in a jurisdiction with an online permit search you can look for past water service replacements, PEX has been standard here for at least 10 years.
I remember asking an inspector for a waiver to just do 250.104(B) and it was a game of 'if it was used as a electrode in the past you need to prove its not an electrode anymore.' If you live in a jurisdiction with an online permit search you can look for past water service replacements, PEX has been standard here for at least 10 years.
Joe.B
Senior Member
- Location
- Myrtletown Ca
- Occupation
- Building Inspector
This is actually bugging me a little bit. This very rarely comes up in discussion in my work, it's generally a given that the point of connection to a "Metal Underground Water Pipe" per 250.52(A)(1) shall be made within 5 feet of the point of entrance to the building, but is that actually what the code says?
250.50 tells us that all qualifying electrodes described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) shall be connected to create the Grounding Electrode System. All good there.
250.53 says that if a water pipe is used as an electrode it shall have "Continuity" and a "Supplemental Electrode" is required. Okay, no problem. In the case of the OP's example, a CEE could be that supplemental electrode. Good so far?
250.53(D)(2) includes an exception that the supplemental electrode can be connected per 250.68(C)(1).
250.68 covers connections to Grounding Electrodes. It states that the GEC shall connect to the electrode per (A)-(C). 250.68(C) says that GEC’s and bonding jumpers “shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping that is electrically continuous with a metal underground water pipe electrode and is located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to extend the connection to an electrode(s). Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes of the grounding electrode system.”
Is that really saying they must connect to that electrode at that point, or is this only addressing the supplemental electrode connection? Is the “5-foot” rule present somewhere else that I’m missing?
Thanks.
250.50 tells us that all qualifying electrodes described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(7) shall be connected to create the Grounding Electrode System. All good there.
250.53 says that if a water pipe is used as an electrode it shall have "Continuity" and a "Supplemental Electrode" is required. Okay, no problem. In the case of the OP's example, a CEE could be that supplemental electrode. Good so far?
250.53(D)(2) includes an exception that the supplemental electrode can be connected per 250.68(C)(1).
250.68 covers connections to Grounding Electrodes. It states that the GEC shall connect to the electrode per (A)-(C). 250.68(C) says that GEC’s and bonding jumpers “shall be permitted to be connected at the following locations and used to extend the connection to an electrode(s):
(1) Interior metal water piping that is electrically continuous with a metal underground water pipe electrode and is located not more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall be permitted to extend the connection to an electrode(s). Interior metal water piping located more than 1.52 m (5 ft) from the point of entrance to the building shall not be used as a conductor to interconnect electrodes of the grounding electrode system.”
Is that really saying they must connect to that electrode at that point, or is this only addressing the supplemental electrode connection? Is the “5-foot” rule present somewhere else that I’m missing?
Thanks.