It will or It won't

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Just as needed as AFCIs, IMHO are sprinkler systems. GFCIs protect people, smoke detectors protect people, sprinklers would protect people.
As far I'm concerned AFCIs protect property.

I would like statistics on these matters. In reality I am currently convinced most electrical fires in homes are in older homes. Most deaths occur because of no smoke detectors or non working smoke detectors.

The AFCIs are not going to help mattress fires because of smoking in bed or kids playing with matches.
 
Another debate against the Arc-Fault is that the wiring is new and it would be better in an old house with old wiring.
This is true and cannot be debated against with the exception that in 50 years or so the new wiring of today will also be old and brittle.
I forsee the mandating that service upgrades will require the installation of the Arc-Fault and intend to make a proposal for this in the 2011 cycle.

Instead of wasting energy on trying to put them down try using that enegry to find good in them and a way to make them better. They are here and they are going to stay so accept the fact.

Three cheers for everyone who supports the use of Arc-Fault
:) :) :) :) :)
 
I have a number of issues with the AFCIs. First as I said in my earlier post, there is not yet a product on the market that provides the protection that was promised in the proposals for the 1996 code. Second, the fire cause and origin statistics used to support the AFCI requirement shows that ~85% of fires of electrical origin occur in dwelling units more than 20 years old. Will an AFCI installed today still be functional in 2027? Remember that these devices are not fail safe. They continue to supply power to the loads after the electronics have failed. Third, if you apply all of the fire cause information you will find that in the first year of full compliance with the 2002 AFCI rule, the you would expect to prevent 14 fires, and that is assuming that every new dwelling unit would have the code required AFCIs. Yes, each successive year the number of prevented fires goes up, but it is not as many fires prevented as the AFCI manufacturers want you to think. Base on the most recent fire data, less then 7% of dwelling unit fires are of electrical origin and that is the 5th leading cause, with cooking and heating causing over 46% of the total fires. Statements from the AFCI manufacturers as published in the ROPs and ROCs indicate that AFCIs may be able to prevent up to 40% of the electrical fires. I think that the 40% is way high based on the fact that there is know known way to prevent fires that are caused by the I squared R heating that occurs at a poor connection. It in my opinion that this is the cause of most fires of electrical origin.
Don
 
Lets not forget that sq d (homeline) afci breakers were the ones that failed the push to test and there was never an ordered recall.I hope the devices would perform better than the breakers did :D
 
Don
I appreciate the numbers and how they are applied in the statistics that revolve around the mandating of Arc-Fault protection. I agree that the Arc-Fault will offer no protection at all to most of the fires that occur in a dwelling unit.
What I do stand firm on is that if the Arc-Fault stops the one fire that could occur in my house then it is well worth the few hundred dollars that I spent to replace all the 15 and 20 amp breakers in my panel.
Again, it is my opinion that it is a waste of time and energy to debate whether they are of a lot of benefit or not. They are here and they are going to stay so we should accept this and do what we can to encourage them.
:)
 
jwelectric said:
Don
They are here and they are going to stay so we should accept this and do what we can to encourage them.
:)
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I don't have a problem with the AFCI per se. I have a problem with the inferior equipment that is being shoved down our throats by big brother.

I've been around long enough to remember when GFCI's were first mandated. I see the same problems coming our way.
 
Mike,
They are here and they are going to stay so we should accept this and do what we can to encourage them.
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I don't agree. The money that is being wasted to promote AFCIs should be spent in finding the real causes of dwelling unit fires and acting to solve that problem. The AFCI is a solution in search of a problem. You can't build a product in an attempt to solve a problem without first knowing the origin of the problem. That is exactly what we are trying to do here. We don't know the real cause of the fires, and even where the cause has been correctly assigned to an electrical fault, we have no real knowledge of the type of fault that cuased the problem. Without such information, no one can say that the AFCI is the answer to the problem.
Why is that there still is not an AFCI on the market that will function as promised in the ROP for the 1996 code???? In my opinion the action of the manufacturers borders on criminal fraud. At this point in time the combination AFCI required for use starting 1/1/08 is not on the marker. At least one manufacturer can't make it work without an excessive number of nuisance trips.
I would not be surprised if the AFCI was removed from the market within a few years as the result of a class action product liability suit. This would occur because the devices do not prevent the number of fires that the manufactures said they would. All it will take is a number of electrical fires in AFCI protected circuits and a good law firm.
Don
 
I don't have a problem with the AFCI per se. I have a problem with the inferior equipment that is being shoved down our throats by big brother.
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In this case its not big brother....its big business!!!!
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Will an AFCI installed today still be functional in 2027? Remember that these devices are not fail safe. They continue to supply power to the loads after the electronics have failed.
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Is that really true ?

Didn't we already go thru this with GFCIs ?

I thought this concept of still remaining energized after they break was changed when it happened to GFCIs.

David
 
David,
I thought this concept of still remaining energized after they break was changed when it happened to GFCIs.
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Sorry to tell you, it didn't happen for GFCIs either. Another example of misinformation. The GFCI, with nonfunctioning electronics, will continue to supply power to the load unless you push the test button or you have a power failure. After a test or a power failure, it will "lockout" if the electronics are not working. It does not kill the power to the load automatically.
Don
 
Don,

It doesn't lock out until a test or power failure ?
Do you know this from personal testing or some other source ?

David
 
jwelectric said:
Again, it is my opinion that it is a waste of time and energy to debate whether they are of a lot of benefit or not. They are here and they are going to stay so we should accept this and do what we can to encourage them.
:)
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Mike if I work in a dwelling unit I will install them because I am required to.

I have no idea why you think we should not debate about them or encourage the use of product that is not of proven value.

It sure would be nice to see some test results not sponsored in one way or another by the manufacturers of the product.

In a earlier time they would call it 'snake oil', PT Barnum had another term for it.....

Step right up and see the most wonderful and stupendous invention of all time not only will it prevent fires it is a health aid. Sleep with one under your pillow and feel the mind expanding power. Not only is it beneficial it'd the law. :wink:
 
tonyi said:
In an era when a "cheap" house is over $150K, the cost issue doesn't strike me as significant. I few hundred bucks more just means a cheaper bathroom faucet :lol:

OTOH, QO AFCI's are the only brand I've had that tripped when running my sawzal off one. GE and Cutlers worked OK.
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My miter saw consistantly trips a CH AFCI breaker. I've also had problems with electronic fan controllers on an AFCI. When I submitted a question to the fan controller's tech support, here's part of the reply:

It seems that you are not the first to have these troubles with the
AFCI breakers. Originallly the NEC code simply called for recepticals
to be on AFCI breakers and this did not affect the fan controls. Now
however all bedroom circuits require AFCI breakers including those with
fans and fan controls. This affects all 3 speed fan controls, not just
ours. In fact the AFCI breaker manufacturers have until 2007 to
develope breakers that are not tripped by fan controls. Unfortunally
this does not help you or us for today's applications but there is hope
for the future. So in the mean time hopefully you can get buy iwth a
toggle switch. Although there have been some reports of simply pulling
the fan chain causing the breaker to trip as weil. One suggesteion that
the engineer made was to try another AFCI breaker. One from another
manufacturer or maybe even a different one from the same manufacturer
may trip less or not at all. I know that they are not cheap but maybe
it's worth it, maybe not.
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I'm opposed to any universal requirement for them in dwellings until they actually work.
 
Posted by Mike:

They will get better as time goes on so please be patient and let the Residential electrician enjoy a little benefit from the added cost of wiring a house.
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You could at least pretend to have the home owners intrest in mind :(

As far as GFCI's going bad, my understanding is that the requirements changed for all GFCI's manufactured after February 2006 (or somewhere there about). So the new GFCI's will preform self tests every 60 sec, and will either shut off power or give an indication that they are bad.

Steve
 
Many contractors are circuiting bedroom receptacles independently from a bedroom lighting/smoke detector circuit. After the final inspection, I suspect that they yank the lighting/smoke AFCI and replace it with a regular breaker.

I won't say more than the word "suspect" on a public forum but .....

Anyway, they 14-3 thru all the smoke boxes and shoot out of them in each room to the switches.

I'm no fan of hardwired lighting and/or smokes on AFCIs but as an inspector I have no choice but to enforce the code as miswritten, ooops, I mean "written". Plugs on AFCIs save kids with scissors and allow chewing pets to keep all their teeth, but I never understood why the panel caved to industry lobbyists and put hardwired lights and home runs on AFCIs. Putting smokes on AFCIs is just plain stupid.

David
 
David,
It doesn't lock out until a test or power failure ?
Do you know this from personal testing or some other source ?
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If you dig into the burried details provided by the manufacturers you can find this information. You have dig deep and look close as they want you to believe that they automatically lockout. More misinformation to help sell a product, just like they have been doing to promote the AFCIs.
Don
 
Steve,
So the new GFCI's will preform self tests every 60 sec, and will either shut off power or give an indication that they are bad.
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One brand self tests, but does not shut off the power, the LED on the face just changes from green to red. The other brand will lockout, but only after a manual test or a power failure. There is no automatic lockout, so a defective GFCI can continue to supply power to the load.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Steve,
So the new GFCI's will preform self tests every 60 sec, and will either shut off power or give an indication that they are bad.
Click to expand...
One brand self tests, but does not shut off the power, the LED on the face just changes from green to red. The other brand will lockout, but only after a manual test or a power failure. There is no automatic lockout, so a defective GFCI can continue to supply power to the load.
Don
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And they got a UL listing with that kind of performance ?
What kinda BS is that ?

We have our state IAEI meeting next week and there's a UL guy on site there. I'm going to have a little chat with this guy.

David
 
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