ITE pushmatic panelboard

[hhsting]

I have ITE pushmatic panelboard that is installed single family home. Are ITE pushmatic panelboard not in compliance with any of the NEC 2014 code section?

 

[mortimer]

Replace it. it's a dinosaur

 

[hhsting]

Replace it. it's a dinosaur

I know but as AHJ we need to see in code. I cannot find consumer product safety not sure what it’s called that says life cycle of breaker. Anyone have link?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Pushamatics panels sometimes called Bulldog are perfectly legal but breakers are a bit difficult to buy. As long as you can get the parts then I don't see an issue with them. They were actually pretty well made.

 

[480sparky]

........ They were actually pretty well made.

Agreed. Old ≠ Bad.

 

[gadfly56]

I know but as AHJ we need to see in code. I cannot find consumer product safety not sure what it’s called that says life cycle of breaker. Anyone have link?

If they were compliant at the time they were installed and remain in good working order, there is no NEC section that will require their replacement even if they would not be compliant today. NEC makes it very clear that the code/standard is NOT intended to be retroactive. Local governments may impose such requirements if so empowered.

 

[ramsy]

I know but as AHJ we need to see in code. I cannot find consumer product safety not sure what it’s called that says life cycle of breaker. Anyone have link?

1) Never seen Pushmatic bolt-ons cause arc damage at bus contact like most plug-in brands.
2) Old Pushmatic breakers frequently fail to change indication from ON to OFF, when selected.
3) Old Pushmatic breakers frequently fail to reset.
4) Old Pushmatic breakers frequently fail in the OFF position
5) Pushmatic replacement breakers are available at big box stores, and supply houses. I try to avoid Connecticut electric replacements from China.

 

[ramsy]

If I understand correctly, inspectors may not be allowed / insured to operate breakers.

If attempt to reset is not an option for inspectors, then someone else will need to do so, before inspectors can determine if breakers indicate properly, or fail to reset.

 

[hhsting]

Problem came to me. New owner is purchasing property and Inspector who inspected home says to replace same as mentioned here outdated, obsolete, not safe but to be owner electrician says it’s code complaint nothing wrong with pushmatic circuit breaker panelboards ITE. They are not doing any electrical work home right now.

I don’t see it in code thought it could be in CPCS.gov lifecycle of circuit breaker but cannot find link.

 

[480sparky]

Nothing a HI says can be enforced by anyone. They have no legal authority to demand anything other than payment for services rendered.

 

[hhsting]

Nothing a HI says can be enforced by anyone. They have no legal authority to demand anything other than payment for services rendered.

That’s probably why the realtor of the property contacted us representing AHJ. See if AHJ can do something about it but if not in code then AHJ can’t do anything or elsewhere in other codes in CPCS.gov or elsewhere about these breaker

 

[480sparky]

I've been through this dog-n-pony show of HI's who think they're gods and look down upon us 'sparky's. I'll pit my 38 years of OTJ experience, regular CEUs and licensing up against their one-shot 8-hour 'but the book says' training any day.

I once had an HI threaten a lawsuit against a seller who refused to spend $18k to update a house because replacing the panel by, local code, would require it. I told him (the seller) that everything in place was legal when it was installed, and there's no requirement in the NEC to update anything. Even the receps in the kitchen were ungrounded but GFCI-protected. The buyer said the HI's report stated the GFCI's were defective since they didn't trip. I push the on-board TEST button and they trip. The HI just doesn't understand why they won't work with his little $7 plug-in tester.

 

[ramsy]

Since AHJ's are never called to home sales, or house-flipper remodels, the lowly Home Inspector (HI) report is the only tool buyers have to force qualified contractors to investigate premises defect and hazards.

The best Home Inspection reports will call out issues for correction by qualified contractors. The last correction I did included the code below:

Repair or Replace (RR) = The item, component or unit is not functioning as intended, or needs further inspection by a qualified contractor. Items, components or units that can be repaired to satisfactory condition may not need replacement.

HI report called out the RR code for investigation of misplaced Smokes, and for 3-prong plugs w/o grounding.

Experts will investigate Home Inspector reports, and may be required to cite code requirements for enforcement. It can be as simple as locate Smokes per Instructions, and add stickers "GFCI Protected" "No Equipment Ground", or more complex.

My last correction required citing additional Fire Code to correct listing violations with hardwired Smokes used without wiring, where 10-Year battery type were required. Also had to cite authority to replace GFCI's with dual function devices, since AFCI was also required for new remodel devices. Also made use of an AFCI breaker, a few 2-prongs, and bonding where possible without GFCI's.

Since the buyer's mortgage insurance, and bank investors often demand HI reports, corrections and documentation must pass their scrutiny. Regardless who reports property defect or hazard, if authorization for correction is refused, and investors are involved, they will hold up sales until correction is made.

 

[480sparky]

Since AHJ's are never called to home sales, or house-flipper remodels, the lowly Home Inspector (HI) report is the only tool buyers have to force qualified contractors to investigate premises defect and hazards.
...........

I'd say a potential buyer can easily spot some deficiency and request a qualified person to inspect and recommend a proper course of action.

 

[ramsy]

Since most occupants of older homes are ignorant of missing smoke or CO detectors, and regularly have 15A wire installed on 20A breakers, during bath & kithcen remodels, much less use the required GFCI, AFCI, or tamper resistant devices, I'm inclined to believe they know less about electrical safety than home inspectors.

I have seen HI report photos showing 200A fuse box upgrades with the old 100A service conductors, which only qualified persons would recognize the potential for casualty on overload.

I've also seen HI report photos of lamp cords (zip cord) or extension cords buried in walls & ceilings, emerging to feed lights & appliances, which buyers could certainly have pointed out. Those are among the corrections I refuse, deferring to licensed C10's for service upgrades, and General Contractors for complete abatement of walls and wiring.

 

[tesi1]

the primary reason most of the old bulldog pushamatics fail is they are never exercised or turn on and off on a regular basis.
they tend to get hard to operate just like other breakers never operated. look at any circuit breaker manual or instructions
and they are to be exercised at least yearly.