It's inhumane what we do to ourselves

[mdshunk]

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel this to be the case? I don't disagree with you (to an extent) so I'm curious to what your reasons are for believing this.

I don't what Bob meant exactly, but if you look at the BLS data, it's pretty clear he's right.

 

[iwire]

Would you care to elaborate on why you feel this to be the case? I don't disagree with you (to an extent) so I'm curious to what your reasons are for believing this.

I don't really think I can here, definitely political / social commentary.

It is not just one thing I see but a large group of events, changes, attitudes, policies, laws, etc.

I guess the short story is we now, more then any other time I am aware of, have to compete with countries that are a lot hungrier then us.

Here is just one example of the changes, certainly not the only example.

 

[growler]

I guess my main pont is that the list in my opening thread are things I willingly do to myself.

That's the key word right there. We at least get some choice about the jobs we are willing to accept. Many people don't have this luxury. If they refuse to do a certain job they are fired and end up with a bad work record to boot. Even a lawyer may not be given a choice of clients he has to defend.

I have walked away from many jobs because I thought they were either to dangerous or not profitable. I'm sure someone did those jobs. If I were a policeman I wouldn't have this option ( that guy's got a gun, I'm not going in there ). After spending a few years in the military freedom of choice means a lot.

Having a choice to go in a ditch in pursuit of money is much better than going in a ditch because someone told you to or is shooting at you. :grin:

 

[charlie tuna]

e-mailer,
that old contractor working out his 30 year old home isn't the reason our entire trade's hourly wage is low. working out his house is, in his mind,an overhead savings. with the type business or electrical specialty he's involved in might not require a shop, or a shop with a yard, or a shop with a warehouse full of stock! it's his---and our labor rates that we are talking about. if everybody in the united states monday raised their rates by $50. per hour(yes, even the guy operating out of his house) it would be a different world for electrical contractors. we could actually make a large enough profit to put money away for slow periods, upgrade tools, increase workers benefits, take a vacation and enjoy it because you would have the piece of mind that (like the old timers say) you were making money, just didn't know how much. yes the old contractor working out his house is gonna be happier too and yes, he is making a larger profit than you --if you have a shop. but then you might have more trucks than he does??? stop worrying about what the competition has or does, thats out of your control. concentrate on maintaining your overhead to a minimum without it effecting your skills in the field.

we do have a major problem recruiting quality employees and it's going to get worse with the influx of minority groups entering the trades with no basic education. and it is effecting all the trades. it seems the best method is to recruit young talent and train them while keeping them happy and interested in making this industry their livelihood. you will loose a few but to better paying jobs and thats the way it should be. grow only at the rate you can train employees to properly function in the specific part of our trade you specialize in.

 

[peter d]

stop worrying about what the competition has or does, thats out of your control. concentrate on maintaining your overhead to a minimum without it effecting your skills in the field.

I think it's very important to know what the competition is up to. The problem is that the "competition" is keeping prices artificially low and contributing to wage stagnation and even depression. It makes it a lot more difficult to raise rates because there will be 10 other guys who can "do it for a lot cheaper than you."

 

[emahler]

e-mailer,
that old contractor working out his 30 year old home isn't the reason our entire trade's hourly wage is low. working out his house is, in his mind,an overhead savings. with the type business or electrical specialty he's involved in might not require a shop, or a shop with a yard, or a shop with a warehouse full of stock! it's his---and our labor rates that we are talking about. if everybody in the united states monday raised their rates by $50. per hour(yes, even the guy operating out of his house) it would be a different world for electrical contractors. we could actually make a large enough profit to put money away for slow periods, upgrade tools, increase workers benefits, take a vacation and enjoy it because you would have the piece of mind that (like the old timers say) you were making money, just didn't know how much. yes the old contractor working out his house is gonna be happier too and yes, he is making a larger profit than you --if you have a shop. but then you might have more trucks than he does??? stop worrying about what the competition has or does, thats out of your control. concentrate on maintaining your overhead to a minimum without it effecting your skills in the field.

we do have a major problem recruiting quality employees and it's going to get worse with the influx of minority groups entering the trades with no basic education. and it is effecting all the trades. it seems the best method is to recruit young talent and train them while keeping them happy and interested in making this industry their livelihood. you will loose a few but to better paying jobs and thats the way it should be. grow only at the rate you can train employees to properly function in the specific part of our trade you specialize in.

chile-tina...

can you not see this correlation...old timer, works out of house, has no overhead (office is in the corner of his kitchen and consists of an answering machine and a pad of paper, van is 15 yrs off and paid for, etc) so he charges $55/hr...his OH costs him $5/hr...so he apparently does pretty well...

but, and here is the rub...youngbuck johnny goes into business...now he's young and just got married...he wants to buy a home for him and his wife...the average starter home is $300,000 (this is the same town as the old timer has been in for 40 yrs)...he buys a new truck, has a computer, and a cell phone...in order to pay himself enough to afford his house, he has to charge $100/hr...

average customer calls both guys to get a quote...and old timer is 1/2 the price of youngbuck johnny...old timer has been around forever and must know what he's doing...so youngbuck johnny must be ripping the customer off, right?

i'm not saying increase OH, or get a shop, or anything like that...I am saying, if someone is hurting the industry, they are hurting the industry...no matter what the reasons are...

 

[emahler]

I think it's very important to know what the competition is up to. The problem is that the "competition" is keeping prices artificially low and contributing to wage stagnation and even depression. It makes it a lot more difficult to raise rates because there will be 10 other guys who can "do it for a lot cheaper than you."

exactly....

 

[peter d]

..and old timer is 1/2 the price of youngbuck johnny...old timer has been around forever and must know what he's doing...so youngbuck johnny must be ripping the customer off, right?

Yeah, and then johnny has to justify to the potential customer why he's double the price, and explain that there are dozens of expenses in contracting, and he has to make a living too, etc etc. So he has to do a sales job just on his price, and he hasn't even started to talk about the actual job yet...None of this would be necessary if EC's were consistently over the $100/hr mark.

 

[peter d]

The other thread about installing a bolt-on breaker in a hot panel got me to thinking about other stuff we do to ourselves. It's almost inhumane sometimes when you stop to think about it.

Working in the rain or snow to restore power
Working at great heights.
Working in blazing hot attics.
Kneeling over an open toilet flange to take a leak.
Sitting on buckets or a cold floor for lunch break.
Crawling though Lord-knows-what sort of dust and debris in crawl spaces.
Working in muddy ditches.
No proper light or proper heat until our work is done.
Cleaning out cobwebs with your head, because nobody has been where we need to go in the last 50 years.

No wonder people aren't exactly lining up to become electricians. I vote we all get raises. :smile:

Back to the OP, yes, that list and more are exactly why there is "no line, no waiting" to get into the trade but a line to get out.

Take the alternatives - 4 years of college, live in a dorm and do all the things college kids do (I don't think an explanation is required.) Then compare it to the electrical trade: 4 years of hard work for very low pay, possibly no benefits, and at the end of the day when the only thing you want to do is go home and sleep, you have to sit through 3 hours of class taught by some hack instructor twice a week...which one do you think most high school students will want to pick?

I said it before, I'll say it again, I love this trade and all it has to offer, but let's face it, it's not appealing work.

 

[Tiger Electrical]

If electrical contracting was easy everyone would be doing it. I tried most trades before I chose electrical contracting. Would it be any easier to open a restaurant? I don't think so. Every business has its challenges. My personal pet peeve is retired tradesmen in Florida working for $10/hour cash so it doesn't interfere with their SS income. How would you like to compete with someone doing it for a hobby to get out of the house?

There will always be approx. 20% of the ECs going out of business every year and another group taking their place. I don't think of them as competition. I do my best to keep my focus on my own business.

Dave

 

[brian john]

Working 36 hours straight catching 4 hours sleep and back at it.

 

[fww56]

chile-tina...

can you not see this correlation...old timer, works out of house, has no overhead (office is in the corner of his kitchen and consists of an answering machine and a pad of paper, van is 15 yrs off and paid for, etc) so he charges $55/hr...his OH costs him $5/hr...so he apparently does pretty well...

but, and here is the rub...youngbuck johnny goes into business...now he's young and just got married...he wants to buy a home for him and his wife...the average starter home is $300,000 (this is the same town as the old timer has been in for 40 yrs)...he buys a new truck, has a computer, and a cell phone...in order to pay himself enough to afford his house, he has to charge $100/hr...

average customer calls both guys to get a quote...and old timer is 1/2 the price of youngbuck johnny...old timer has been around forever and must know what he's doing...so youngbuck johnny must be ripping the customer off, right?

i'm not saying increase OH, or get a shop, or anything like that...I am saying, if someone is hurting the industry, they are hurting the industry...no matter what the reasons are...

If you'd take a step back and take look at the whole picture not through tunnel vision. I think you'd have to agree that the problems your hanging your argument has more to do with the young guy (and older guys as well) that are trying to strike out on his own rather than the established successful "old timer" whether he's working out of his house, truck, car or a motorcycle.

No I'm quite sure that the problems in this industry are not so simple as the method used to compute compensation of the employees. The employees are still the backbone of any industry.

The new guy (youngbuck johnny) will more often than not be willing to undercut the price of anybody out there in the interest of procuring the work, gaining experience and getting his name out there. It is these guys (youngbuck Johnny) that will tout the benefits of not having the overhead and can therefore charge lower rates. These are the same guys (youngbuck Johhnny) that may not have even the basic tools to do the job properly. How many times have you seen a guy (youngbuck Johnny) at the counter ask how much a set of knockout punches or a cable ratchet cutter is and say I can't afford that? And they continue to practice business as usual.

I think the basic problem is both human nature as well as a lack of education. The human nature aspect is that they get an idea of the numbers that are involved and would like a piece of the pie. They see the boss leaving the job early without realizing that they are usually not going fishing or golfing but are on their way to look at another job or put the last touches on another proposal often working late into the night long after the employees have cracked their first twist top.

The education part is these guys starting out have to be willing to make an investment of much more than dollar value of the basic tools of the trade. They've also got to be willing invest in research and grasp the knowledge that is out there to help them get a hold of a basic understanding of business 101. I don't believe that there is an area of this country that some basic workshop or community college course is not available. I know that I have many times explained the cost of going to work theories to guys and most times it has made a difference. I know that these same "competitors" will still be out there trying to better my prices but it really closes the gap. In most of these cases I can still be competitive due to experience and efficiency that has taken years to come by. And these same guys are the ones that i don't mind helping out with the knock out kit or take some obscure part from the truck to help them out knowing that they now "get it". These guys will also reciprocate. I consider them not so much competitors but rather my contemporaries.

FRANK

 

[emahler]

If you'd take a step back and take look at the whole picture not through tunnel vision. I think you'd have to agree that the problems your hanging your argument has more to do with the young guy (and older guys as well) that are trying to strike out on his own rather than the established successful "old timer" whether he's working out of his house, truck, car or a motorcycle.

i agree that the new guys, young and old, are definitely part of the problem...but where did they get their education from? most states have no requirement that you really know anything about business to open one up...they just test for technical ability.

it's also the old timer that was never quite successful... the guy who does a great job, but never charged enough...he just was able to make money 30 yrs ago when all the rules and regulations that we have today were not in place...these days he works primarily for cash (he's a legal, licensed company) but maybe doesn't always pull permits when he should...and still doesn't charge anywhere near what he's worth...

my attorney is a senior partner in his law firm...he's got 30 yrs experience...he bills out at over $400/hr...

why don't guys in our industry think that way? if I have experience, why should I charge less than the new guy? heck, if i'm good, and do my work T&M, I might actually make less money on a job, simply because I got it done quicker...

No I'm quite sure that the problems in this industry are not so simple as the method used to compute compensation of the employees. The employees are still the backbone of any industry.

not following this thought...

The new guy (youngbuck johnny) will more often than not be willing to undercut the price of anybody out there in the interest of procuring the work, gaining experience and getting his name out there. It is these guys (youngbuck Johnny) that will tout the benefits of not having the overhead and can therefore charge lower rates. These are the same guys (youngbuck Johhnny) that may not have even the basic tools to do the job properly. How many times have you seen a guy (youngbuck Johnny) at the counter ask how much a set of knockout punches or a cable ratchet cutter is and say I can't afford that? And they continue to practice business as usual.

they are out there...most of them spent years working for the old timer that never charged enough and never taught youngbuck anything about how to run a business...

I think the basic problem is both human nature as well as a lack of education. The human nature aspect is that they get an idea of the numbers that are involved and would like a piece of the pie. They see the boss leaving the job early without realizing that they are usually not going fishing or golfing but are on their way to look at another job or put the last touches on another proposal often working late into the night long after the employees have cracked their first twist top.

The education part is these guys starting out have to be willing to make an investment of much more than dollar value of the basic tools of the trade. They've also got to be willing invest in research and grasp the knowledge that is out there to help them get a hold of a basic understanding of business 101. I don't believe that there is an area of this country that some basic workshop or community college course is not available. I know that I have many times explained the cost of going to work theories to guys and most times it has made a difference. I know that these same "competitors" will still be out there trying to better my prices but it really closes the gap. In most of these cases I can still be competitive due to experience and efficiency that has taken years to come by. And these same guys are the ones that i don't mind helping out with the knock out kit or take some obscure part from the truck to help them out knowing that they now "get it". These guys will also reciprocate. I consider them not so much competitors but rather my contemporaries.

FRANK

I completely agree these last two paragraphs...if more guys thought this way, the industry would be in better shape...

 

[willdalrymple]

I read a book, " Buck Rogers" the original, many years ago before I got into the electrical trade. The evil hans had an emporer but the govt, was really controlled by the maintenance and construction people. They figured out that the city's would fail if they did nothing. So they held out for better wages and benifits, and over time when other classes of people got out of line they would threaten to do no work. This fear kept the other classes in line. Now I don't know how we can all strike at once but just a little bit of time without modern convienences might make our point. The problem with us not getting paid what were worth lies with us and not holding our ground and educating the customers what that hack with the lower price may be leaving out of their price to keep it so low, ie insurance, properly licensed, and the knoledge to do the job so that they are safe. It will be easier to increase our prices after most of the hacks are gone.

 

[fww56]

i agree that the new guys, young and old, are definitely part of the problem...but where did they get their education from? most states have no requirement that you really know anything about business to open one up...they just test for technical ability.

Nor is a business education required for most any other business venture you would like to pursue. Whether plumbing, convenience store, fast food restaurant etc.

Originally Posted by fww56
If you'd take a step back and take look at the whole picture not through tunnel vision. I think you'd have to agree that the problems your hanging your argument has more to do with the young guy (and older guys as well) that are trying to strike out on his own rather than the established successful "old timer" whether he's working out of his house, truck, car or a motorcycle.

it's also the old timer that was never quite successful... the guy who does a great job, but never charged enough...he just was able to make money 30 yrs ago when all the rules and regulations that we have today were not in place...these days he works primarily for cash (he's a legal, licensed company) but maybe doesn't always pull permits when he should...and still doesn't charge anywhere near what he's worth...

Re-read my post, I not only put it in bold but also put red. The point I tried to make was successful.

my attorney is a senior partner in his law firm...he's got 30 yrs experience...he bills out at over $400/hr...

There again it comes down to education.

Originally Posted by fww56
No I'm quite sure that the problems in this industry are not so simple as the method used to compute compensation of the employees. The employees are still the backbone of any industry.

not following this thought...

This statement is strictly in response to all of the posts you've made recently regarding piecework.

they are out there...most of them spent years working for the old timer that never charged enough and never taught youngbuck anything about how to run a business...

I can't say for sure if most of them worked for somebody that didn't charge enough. But I think it's safe to say that they (youngbuck Johnny) surely didn't put forth enough effort EDUCATING THEMSELVES before jumping into this thing they call contracting. And to blame it on somebody other than himself is just another example of the all too common problem today of not accepting responsibility for one's own actions. These guys (youngbuck Johnny) would likely not be successful in whatever business they would venture into.

FRANK

 

[emahler]

Nor is a business education required for most any other business venture you would like to pursue. Whether plumbing, convenience store, fast food restaurant etc.

plumbers are just smarter than us...but for most any other business, the buy in is larger...try opening a Dunkin Donuts, Sonic, McDonalds, 7-11, etc...if you have the money required ($1mil+ liquid), you probably have an idea how to run a business...however, how many restaurants fail every year? a ton...

Re-read my post, I not only put it in bold but also put red. The point I tried to make was successful.

i understood, it's just my experience that they are the exception, rather than the rule...

There again it comes down to education.

no disagreement, he's smart enough to know that he's worth it...

This statement is strictly in response to all of the posts you've made recently regarding piecework.

don't mistake my statements regarding piecework as anything other than showing a viable, legal, ethical option...

I can't say for sure if most of them worked for somebody that didn't charge enough. But I think it's safe to say that they (youngbuck Johnny) surely didn't put forth enough effort EDUCATING THEMSELVES before jumping into this thing they call contracting. And to blame it on somebody other than himself is just another example of the all too common problem today of not accepting responsibility for one's own actions. These guys (youngbuck Johnny) would likely not be successful in whatever business they would venture into.

FRANK

again, i agree with you...at the end of the day, we are all responsible for ourselves...we are also responsible to the trade that provides for us....and that includes teaching those that come after us...if they don't want to learn, that's on them...but then don't let them become contractors....set the bar at a height that keeps the uneducated and undeserving from getting the piece of paper that really allows them to screw up the industry...

now let me ask you...what about the youngbuck that learns...the guy that crunches his number and knows what his costs are...the guy that follows the rules and laws...legal and legit...he quotes a job at $1000 (9 hrs at $100/hr and $100 in labor - because he knows that he needs to pay himself $2000/week to make his mortgage payment on his $300,000 starter house)....and he finds out that Old Man McGirk quotes the job for $550 (including material)...maybe Old Man will will make $200 in his pocket and be happy...

Is Old Man McGirk doing a service to the industry?

 

[satcom]

Nor is a business education required for most any other business venture you would like to pursue. Whether plumbing, convenience store, fast food restaurant etc.

The students at many of the food craft schools, have a heavy load of classes on the business end.

You can laugh at the fast food industry, but there are many managers out there making six figures as a starting salary.

 

[emahler]

The students at many of the food craft schools, have a heavy load of classes on the business end.

You can laugh at the fast food industry, but there are many managers out there making six figures as a starting salary.

look into the capital required to open an outlet...and most fast food chains require contracts for multiple outlets...and outside of diners, how many fast food joints are not chains/franchises?

 

[fww56]

I didn't realize how far from the original topic this thread had gotten. I apologize to Marc for being a part of this hi-jack. I won't post to this topic in this thread again.

Back to the original topic.

How many times have we;

1--gone out to the truck to put on a pair of dry shoes to lessen the chance of dieing at work?
2--when working alone called somebody on the cell phone before doing something risky and tell them to call for help if they don't here from you in a half of an hour?
2--entangled our legs in a ladder so we could reach beyond the safe distance without falling off?
3--put a couple of wraps of tape on a tool such as a ratchet and calling it insulated?



FRANK

 

[mdshunk]

2--when working alone called somebody on the cell phone before doing something risky and tell them to call for help if they don't here from you in a half of an hour?

I've called my wife under the guise of "chatting", but I really wanted it to be one last "I love you", just in case.

Man, that hits kinda hard now that I'm sitting here thinking about it.