J-Box above Suspended ceiling
- Thread starter michael
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Sounds like it could be touching the box.
All yo gotta do is take down ceiling.
Sounds like it could be touching the box.
All yo gotta do is take down ceiling.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Where did he dig that up from.
It's a new one on me.
Ask him the article #
Where did he dig that up from.
It's a new one on me.
Ask him the article #
electricman2
Senior Member
- Location
- North Carolina
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Maybe a local rule? :roll:
Maybe a local rule? :roll:
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Local amendments T me off.Our job is tough enough without dealing with a lot of local crap.The big boy's wrote the code ,just what makes our local AHJ think they know more than them.
Also think that when new NEC comes out we should automaticly accept it with maybe 3 month period to adjust to new rules.
Local amendments T me off.Our job is tough enough without dealing with a lot of local crap.The big boy's wrote the code ,just what makes our local AHJ think they know more than them.
Also think that when new NEC comes out we should automaticly accept it with maybe 3 month period to adjust to new rules.
alan mcneil
Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
How can I reach the box after the ceiling is in without standing on the top step of the ladder?
I have short legs.
How can I reach the box after the ceiling is in without standing on the top step of the ladder?
I have short legs.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Jim I understand what you are saying in some respects, I like to know what to expect in each area I work.
I work in four states MA, RI, CT and NH each is different, that is my problem I could choose to work in just my home state. (MA)
Here in MA the AHJ is the state, the amendments are made at the state level and the inspectors in the cities and towns enforce what the AHJ has determined to be "the code".
We have between 60-80 amendments to the NEC not many change from one code cycle to the next.
Many times these local amendments end up in the NEC, it is possible that the local amendments can be implemented faster than in the NEC.
Grab your code book and read the names and origins of the people that sit on the code making panels.(That info is right in the front) Many have ties to company's that have a vested interest $$$$$ in what codes are written.
We do not have that at the state level.
Jim I understand what you are saying in some respects, I like to know what to expect in each area I work.
I work in four states MA, RI, CT and NH each is different, that is my problem I could choose to work in just my home state. (MA)
Here in MA the AHJ is the state, the amendments are made at the state level and the inspectors in the cities and towns enforce what the AHJ has determined to be "the code".
We have between 60-80 amendments to the NEC not many change from one code cycle to the next.
Many times these local amendments end up in the NEC, it is possible that the local amendments can be implemented faster than in the NEC.
I do not know if they think they know more, I do think they are less influenced by the various special interest groups that are involved in making the NEC.
Grab your code book and read the names and origins of the people that sit on the code making panels.(That info is right in the front) Many have ties to company's that have a vested interest $$$$$ in what codes are written.
We do not have that at the state level.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
I do not know if that is a local law, I also agree with the thought process of the local amendments making our job more difficult/costly if we are not aware of them. Sometimes the installation does not take into account the difficulty of maintenance after installation. Installations above a suspended ceiling can make the future maintenance difficult, so placement of some 'stuff' could be more strategic, especially for safety reasons. A jbox install 5 feet above an eight or ten foot drop ceiling can be difficult to work on, I am not sure if this breaks code, but some thought process should be involved as to maintenance in the future.
Pierre
I do not know if that is a local law, I also agree with the thought process of the local amendments making our job more difficult/costly if we are not aware of them. Sometimes the installation does not take into account the difficulty of maintenance after installation. Installations above a suspended ceiling can make the future maintenance difficult, so placement of some 'stuff' could be more strategic, especially for safety reasons. A jbox install 5 feet above an eight or ten foot drop ceiling can be difficult to work on, I am not sure if this breaks code, but some thought process should be involved as to maintenance in the future.
Pierre
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
I was recently snaking a 24' extension up through the ceiling of a Jewelry shop in order to access a fire alarm monitor module that was malfunctioning.
The suspended ceiling was at 9' the bottom of the truss where the the module was at 24'.
I still have to go back with a taller ladder and some help to bring it in the store and up through the ceiling.
[ December 20, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
I was recently snaking a 24' extension up through the ceiling of a Jewelry shop in order to access a fire alarm monitor module that was malfunctioning.
The suspended ceiling was at 9' the bottom of the truss where the the module was at 24'.
I still have to go back with a taller ladder and some help to bring it in the store and up through the ceiling.
[ December 20, 2003, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
The location of junction or outlet boxes, should be accessible without constructing a scaffold, or using high lifts, unless there is equipment in the area being served.
There is a minimum clearance for performing work, this topic suggests a maximum clearance is needed.
It may be a stretch to find the words to prohibit the boxes being out of reach, but the inspector is using good judgement, in my opinion.
The location of junction or outlet boxes, should be accessible without constructing a scaffold, or using high lifts, unless there is equipment in the area being served.
There is a minimum clearance for performing work, this topic suggests a maximum clearance is needed.
It may be a stretch to find the words to prohibit the boxes being out of reach, but the inspector is using good judgement, in my opinion.
hbiss
EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
- Location
- Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
- Occupation
- EC
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
I agree. The inspector made a judgement call as to whether this is accessable. There is a limit to how far you can safely reach through a 2x2 or 2x4 foot opening and I don't think having to take apart the ceiling grid to get a ladder through it makes the box accessable.
I agree. The inspector made a judgement call as to whether this is accessable. There is a limit to how far you can safely reach through a 2x2 or 2x4 foot opening and I don't think having to take apart the ceiling grid to get a ladder through it makes the box accessable.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
I also agree it is logical but I do not agree the inspector is within the confines of the NEC to require the box down lower.
This is a real pain in the rear for me on service calls, but the NEC would have to change the definition of accessible for this to be a violation.
I also agree it is logical but I do not agree the inspector is within the confines of the NEC to require the box down lower.
This is a real pain in the rear for me on service calls, but the NEC would have to change the definition of accessible for this to be a violation.
Much different from
I can put an extension ladder up through a suspended ceiling without taking the grid apart.
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
314.29 Boxes and conduit bodies to be accessible.
The NEC hand book note says that consideration should be given to the accessibility of junction boxes installed on a structural ceiling above a suspended ceiling. see article 100 for the definition of accessable.
Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
I think that the inspector is making a judgement call and I tend to agree with him
314.29 Boxes and conduit bodies to be accessible.
The NEC hand book note says that consideration should be given to the accessibility of junction boxes installed on a structural ceiling above a suspended ceiling. see article 100 for the definition of accessable.
Accessible (as applied to equipment). Admitting close approach; not guarded by locked doors, elevation, or other effective means.
Accessible (as applied to wiring methods). Capable of being removed or exposed without damaging the building structure or finish or not permanently closed in by the structure or finish of the building.
I think that the inspector is making a judgement call and I tend to agree with him
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
If the code wanted a height rule im sure they would include it.They go to great detail on everything else, so why not here.Seems to me that 5 ft would be pushing it a little and 24 ft is rediculos.I think with the perfect size ladder you probably could get it in between a grid, but maybe there needs to be a limit.Once had a service call to change 4ft bulbs in a restroom that had a 12 ft ceiling.Sounds easy enough, but do to the privacy walls at the entry it was impossible to get through the door and around the wall with anything larger than a 6ft ladder.
There are times when access to things just becomes all but possible or just far too risky for the few dollars involved.Maybe the AHJ has adopted a local code to help out.
If the code wanted a height rule im sure they would include it.They go to great detail on everything else, so why not here.Seems to me that 5 ft would be pushing it a little and 24 ft is rediculos.I think with the perfect size ladder you probably could get it in between a grid, but maybe there needs to be a limit.Once had a service call to change 4ft bulbs in a restroom that had a 12 ft ceiling.Sounds easy enough, but do to the privacy walls at the entry it was impossible to get through the door and around the wall with anything larger than a 6ft ladder.
There are times when access to things just becomes all but possible or just far too risky for the few dollars involved.Maybe the AHJ has adopted a local code to help out.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
What if his judgment call was 14 awg should not be used?
You can not enforce what is not in the code.
I do not believe an inspector is allowed to make "judgment calls".
What if his judgment call was 14 awg should not be used?
You can not enforce what is not in the code.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
I do mostly residential so am not great at codes in com.But would think if there was a code over this 4 ft limit , someone would be speaking up.
I do mostly residential so am not great at codes in com.But would think if there was a code over this 4 ft limit , someone would be speaking up.
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
Not to change the subject, but if you are doing much commercial work, a trestle ladder really should be a part of your equipment. That is the one where two parts of the ladder fold out pryamid style and the center part can be sent straight up thru the 2' x 4' opening allowing you to go up thru the opening.(of course with your 50 pounds of safety harness equipment on). This thread has my interest because I have been tagged for a j-box that was about 28" directly above the corner intersection of the t-bar. The Inspector wanted it centered above the opening of the tile.
His claim was that above the intersection of the t-bar rendered the box inacessable.
Not to change the subject, but if you are doing much commercial work, a trestle ladder really should be a part of your equipment. That is the one where two parts of the ladder fold out pryamid style and the center part can be sent straight up thru the 2' x 4' opening allowing you to go up thru the opening.(of course with your 50 pounds of safety harness equipment on). This thread has my interest because I have been tagged for a j-box that was about 28" directly above the corner intersection of the t-bar. The Inspector wanted it centered above the opening of the tile.
His claim was that above the intersection of the t-bar rendered the box inacessable.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: J-Box above Suspended ceiling
In the example I gave of the Jewelry store I got to talk to the installer.
This was a large strip plaza / mall and when the fire alarm equipment went in the tenant spaces had not been divided, there where no walls to mount the device on and the future ceiling heights where not known.
The device monitors a sprinkler valve where glycol is added to the sprinkler system as it goes into the unheated space of the canopy.
This sort of thing just happens it is all part of the fun of contracting.
In the example I gave of the Jewelry store I got to talk to the installer.
This was a large strip plaza / mall and when the fire alarm equipment went in the tenant spaces had not been divided, there where no walls to mount the device on and the future ceiling heights where not known.
The device monitors a sprinkler valve where glycol is added to the sprinkler system as it goes into the unheated space of the canopy.
This sort of thing just happens it is all part of the fun of contracting.
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