J Box behind mirror

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jckenner said:
But then if the homeowner screws a mirror over a box in the bedroom, is he committing a violation by covering a box? Is that "finish" or an embellishment, like a picture?
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I don't think this is a simply answer and I suppose you will get different answers from different people. I see a mirror screwed to the wall no different then I do a cabinet screwed to the wall. I would red flag it unless the mirror was framed and hung as a picture would be.

Would you allow a cabinet to cover a panel box even if there were just a few screws to get to it. I don't think that will fly.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I don't think this is a simply answer and I suppose you will get different answers from different people. I see a mirror screwed to the wall no different then I do a cabinet screwed to the wall. I would red flag it unless the mirror was framed and hung as a picture would be.

Would you allow a cabinet to cover a panel box even if there were just a few screws to get to it. I don't think that will fly.
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I agree with this line of thinking.
 
By the way is this a pull through J-box?
Or does it contain the vanity light conductors and because the owner changed the position or the light type. Like others said a propper splice and acessable cover done deal.

On the other hand if it was a pull through of other conductors then It probably should be moved.
 
As pointed out, no different than removing an access panel to get into an attic or crawlsapce.

Removing four screws to take down a mirror is not going to damage anything unless you mess up.

No violation.
 
electricmanscott said:
As pointed out, no different than removing an access panel to get into an attic or crawlsapce.

Removing four screws to take down a mirror is not going to damage anything unless you mess up.

No violation.
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Or, if the access panel is located in a drywall ceiling where you first have to find a ladder, maybe carry it up 3 flights of stairs, and then undo the screws to the access panel and then climb into the ceiling with a flashlight to get to the JB. Taking down a mirror seems much easier than this.
 
K8MHZ said:
What if it was a picture screwed to the wall over a j-box? Screwing picture frames to walls is not uncommon.
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And as soon as you screw it to the wall it becomes part of the building. Most of our pictures are oil paintings and are screwed in place , but none cover any boxes. My main panel has a clip for that picture.
I agree that you could remove the mirror without damage but you still are concealing it.
As an inspector i would tag it. Very few electricians will take the liability to remove a mirror and it is unlikely they will even know the box is behind it.
 
There are two issues here, one addressed by code (but open to disagreement), one not addressed by code.

The issue addressed by code is: is the junction box accessible. To answer this, we have to ask if we are disrupting the building structure or finish in order to get to the box, and the issue is debatable. On the one hand, this mirror is essentially permanently installed to the wall; on the other hand we have the example of a junction box buried under the light fixture. Taking off the mirror requires similar effort to taking down the light fixture, and the junction box behind the light fixture is considered accessible....

The issue not addressed by code: will you be able to find the junction box. IMHO a junction box behind a mirror is hidden about as effectively as one simply buried behind drywall. If you know that the box is there, it is pretty easy to get at; but if you don't know the box is there, you will never find it. This is a pretty significant difference from the box behind the fixture example; the box is _expected_ to be located behind the fixture.

I don't believe that code addresses the 'camouflage' of junction boxes, though one might argue that a sufficiently camouflaged box is rendered inaccessible.

-Jon
 
winnie said:
There are two issues here, one addressed by code (but open to disagreement), one not addressed by code.

The issue addressed by code is: is the junction box accessible. To answer this, we have to ask if we are disrupting the building structure or finish in order to get to the box, and the issue is debatable. On the one hand, this mirror is essentially permanently installed to the wall; on the other hand we have the example of a junction box buried under the light fixture. Taking off the mirror requires similar effort to taking down the light fixture, and the junction box behind the light fixture is considered accessible....

The issue not addressed by code: will you be able to find the junction box. IMHO a junction box behind a mirror is hidden about as effectively as one simply buried behind drywall. If you know that the box is there, it is pretty easy to get at; but if you don't know the box is there, you will never find it. This is a pretty significant difference from the box behind the fixture example; the box is _expected_ to be located behind the fixture.

I don't believe that code addresses the 'camouflage' of junction boxes, though one might argue that a sufficiently camouflaged box is rendered inaccessible.

-Jon
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I could not agree more. If we don't know it is there then it might just as well be behind drywall. Being behind drywall is safe but we can't find it.
 
You know what I love about this site???,.. Last week ,.an attachment plug behind a fridge or gas stove was deemed in-accessible , by some ,.. and therefore could not be used as a disconnecting means for said appliances ,.. fast forward,... today a splice behind a mirror or upper kitchen cabinet is good to go,.. cuz it just requires the removal of a few screws... ???
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
If we don't know it is there then it might just as well be behind drywall.
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So?

This is our Craft, and our Art. We don't need that j-box behind the mirror unless there is a problem. The problem has us already troubleshooting the various openings, gathering the symptoms and seeking the understanding that leads us to the point of failure.

I mean, we're so good at our craft that we can find the point of failure even when it is at a location that was willfully buried or "camouflaged".

I remember one two story 1918 single family that had most of the second floor go dead. I found eleven buried sconce lighting outlets, all live with through wiring, before I found the unboxed wirenut splice where a portion of curtain wall had been removed to convert a closet into a deep set of bookshelves. The old black RMC had been removed, leaving Type R conductors in the open, a length of NM had been scabbed on and the whole thing had been squashed against a stud and then wrapped with 3/4" oak boards that were part of the "look" of the bookcase.

One of the open wirenut splices had burned open while lying against the old rough cut stud. While the home owner watched, I redid the splice and everything lit back up. It was nothing less than miraculous that nothing more than half of the wirenut was consumed in the series arc.

I then set about making things correct.

The home owner didn't like the bill, but was glad to have yet another of the problems that they knew the "handy guy" two owners back had created. It was their house now, and they knew the liability that came with the ownership.

After the initial surprise, they became excited about all the "free" sconces that they could now get luminaires for.

In my troubleshooting, I had exhausted all the places "Code" wiring had hinted at, and had moved on to thinking like a scab installer.

IMO, the j-box behind the mirror is one of the "Code" possibilities to be exhausted before real hole making commences. :cool:
 
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electricmanscott said:
Not me. I have no problem with either situation.
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I say it very much depends on how said mirror is held in place

watch this little show ,.. had those boxes contained wiring ? IMO violation the way the first mirror was held in place ,.. the way the second mirror is held , had those boxes contained wiring and the proper covers it would not be a violation IMO, just a pain in the neck.


http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Hang-a-Mirror-39383931
 
M. D. said:
I say it very much depends on how said mirror is held in place

watch this little show ,.. had those boxes contained wiring ? IMO violation the way the first mirror was held in place ,.. the way the second mirror is held , had those boxes contained wiring and the proper covers it would not be a violation IMO, just a pain in the neck.


http://www.5min.com/Video/How-To-Hang-a-Mirror-39383931
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You owe me 8 minutes. :cool:
 
I feel sorry for the dog, it was left in danger while he protected himself. That guy has no clue about removal of mirrors. Bet he does wiring too. And he wanted this on the net ? WHY ?
 
One time I spent about an hour searching for a box that was hidden behind a bathroom mirror. It contained a tripped GFCI recep :roll:


That's all I have to add.
 
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