Jacuzzi bonding

[goldstar]

After seeing Dennis Alwon's post about hot tub bonding I was reminded of an installation of a Jacuzzi tub that I recently wired. In past installations many EI's informed me that I not only had to install a (green) insulated # 8 solid from the lug on the motor to a cold water main but that water pipe clamp had to be accessible for servicing. As such I have always run the ground wire to a point where the clamp could be replaced if it corroded. In all cases that I've seen the water is fed to the tub on one end and the motor is on the opposite end. Can I legitimately install the ground clamp on pipes at the front end of the tub or do I have to run it to a point where it is accessible ?

 

[blkmagik21]

It’s accessible under there in my opinion. And also use DB ground clamps. They won’t corrode.


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[infinity]

Under the 2014 NEC bonding the water pipe is not required.

 

[goldstar]

Under the 2014 NEC bonding the water pipe is not required.

I don’t know how I keep missing these important things in the CEU classes. :rant::rant::rant:

 

[infinity]

I don’t know how I keep missing these important things in the CEU classes. :rant::rant::rant:

There was a slight code change where the wording was clarified under the 2014 NEC. The 2017 is completely re-written it's now almost like a swimming pool. :slaphead:

Here's the 2014, note that the bonding is only required for the piping and metal parts in contact with the circulating water.

680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded
metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be
bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, in-
sulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The
bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the
circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose.
The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected
to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG
or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for
equipotential bonding in the area of the hydromassage bath-
tub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to
any remote panelboard, service equipment, or any elec-
trode. The 8AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall
be long enough to terminate on a replacement non-double-
insulated pump motor and shall be terminated to the equip-
ment grounding conductor of the branch circuit of the motor
when a double-insulated circulating pump motor is used.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It’s accessible under there in my opinion. And also use DB ground clamps. They won’t corrode.


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The op is talking about a hydromassage tub. A tub in the bathroom with a motor

 

[goldstar]

There was a slight code change where the wording was clarified under the 2014 NEC. The 2017 is completely re-written it's now almost like a swimming pool. :slaphead:

Here's the 2014, note that the bonding is only required for the piping and metal parts in contact with the circulating water.

680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG. The bonding jumper shall be connected to the terminal on the circulating pump motor that is intended for this purpose. The bonding jumper shall not be required to be connected to a double insulated circulating pump motor. The 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be required for equi-potential bonding in the area of the hydro-massage bath tub and shall not be required to be extended or attached to any remote panel-board, service equipment, or any electrode. The 8AWG or larger solid copper bonding jumper shall be long enough to terminate on a replacement non-double-insulated pump motor and shall be terminated to the equipment grounding conductor of the branch circuit of the motor when a double-insulated circulating pump motor is used.

This seems like "legalese" language to me. I can't understand how it indicates that a non-double-insulated motor doesn't have to be bonded to a cold water line. As a side bar, what do you do if you have PEX instead of copper ? If you're required to bond the motor do you now have to run the # 8 to a point where copper piping exists and does it have to be accessible ?

In my case there is copper piping inside the walls which then gets connected to the tub via flexible plastic piping. Does that mean that I don't have to bond the motor to the copper water line ?

 

[infinity]

In my case there is copper piping inside the walls which then gets connected to the tub via flexible plastic piping. Does that mean that I don't have to bond the motor to the copper water line ?

No connection required the metal piping in the wall as it is not part of the water re-circulation system.

 

[goldstar]

No connection required the metal piping in the wall as it is not part of the water re-circulation system.

I've asked several of my colleagues and 3 EI's and none of them are in agreement with you. Their comment was generally "if the motor comes with a ground lug you must bond it to the water line". In addition, if the motor is double insulated you still have to install the ground wire in the event the motor gets changed out in the future and replaced with one that is not double insulated. Some say the ground clamp has to be visible at the rough so it can be attached at the water supply end of the tub. Some say that it has to be in a "servicable" area. So.... still up in the air on that one.

 

[infinity]

I've asked several of my colleagues and 3 EI's and none of them are in agreement with you. Their comment was generally "if the motor comes with a ground lug you must bond it to the water line".

Then they're all wrong.

The wording in 680.74 was changed in the 2014 NEC to include the word "both" indicating that the requirement applies to both the metal parts and metal piping in contact with the circulating water. Water piping feeding or in the vicinity of the tub is not part of the circulating water system and does not require bonding.

Under earlier additions of the NEC the word all was used, if this referenced all metal piping systems that were not part of the water circulation system then then where do you bond the gas pipe?

2011 NEC:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

2014 NEC:
680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

 

[goldstar]

Then they're all wrong.

The wording in 680.74 was changed in the 2014 NEC to include the word "both" indicating that the requirement applies to both the metal parts and metal piping in contact with the circulating water. Water piping feeding or in the vicinity of the tub is not part of the circulating water system and does not require bonding.

Under earlier additions of the NEC the word all was used, if this referenced all metal piping systems that were not part of the water circulation system then then where do you bond the gas pipe?

Rob, I'm sorry and I don't mean to seem dense on this matter but I've gone back to the 1999, 2002 and 2005 NEC and found that the language changed in 2005 to include the words "in contact with the circulating water". If that's the case why have we been installing the bonding wire since the 2005 Code was adopted ? Even Mike Holt, in his 2014 Changes to the 2014 NEC booklet acknowledges that:

The strange requirement for bonding hydro-massage tubs has been revised AGAIN

I don't think the words ALL or BOTH have much to do with the interpretation of this Code section. Now, it looks like when NJ adopts the 2017 NEC we'll be going back to installing the bonding wire NO MATTER WHAT.

IMHO, for the amount of time and $$ it cost me to install that bonding wire I'd rather have it in place than not, just in case the CMP's decide to change their minds in the future.

Thanks for your reply and enlightenment. :thumbsup:

 

[infinity]

Rob, I'm sorry and I don't mean to seem dense on this matter but I've gone back to the 1999, 2002 and 2005 NEC and found that the language changed in 2005 to include the words "in contact with the circulating water". If that's the case why have we been installing the bonding wire since the 2005 Code was adopted ? Even Mike Holt, in his 2014 Changes to the 2014 NEC booklet acknowledges that: I don't think the words ALL or BOTH have much to do with the interpretation of this Code section. Now, it looks like when NJ adopts the 2017 NEC we'll be going back to installing the bonding wire NO MATTER WHAT.

IMHO, for the amount of time and $$ it cost me to install that bonding wire I'd rather have it in place than not, just in case the CMP's decide to change their minds in the future.

Thanks for your reply and enlightenment. :thumbsup:

The words both and all are relevant and obviously CMP thought so or they wouldn't have made the code change.

Just for the record it was my proposal to change the wording from all to both in the 2014 because the words "all metal piping systems" could mean also bonding the gas piping which is clearly not the intent. The intent has always been to only bond the metal piping and metal parts in contact with the circulating water. All of this was part of the substantiation that the CMP agreed with.

I'm glad that the 2017 revised this entire section to make it more clear but even under the 2017 if the metal piping systems are below the tub do they require bonding?

680.74(A)(3) Metal-sheathed cables and raceways and metal piping that
are within 1.5 m (5 ft) of the inside walls of the tub and
not separated from the tub by a permanent barrier

 

[goldstar]

Congrats !!! I didn't know you made that wording change. I haven't seen a hydro-tub where a gas line was installed for or in the vicinity of though.

A lot depends on what is meant by "below the tub". If it's within the flooring joists under the tub and then covered by flooring and thin-set, isn't that considered a permanent barrier ? If it's inside or within the tub area then I agree with you.

 

[infinity]

Congrats !!! I didn't know you made that wording change. I haven't seen a hydro-tub where a gas line was installed for or in the vicinity of though.

A lot depends on what is meant by "below the tub". If it's within the flooring joists under the tub and then covered by flooring and thin-set, isn't that considered a permanent barrier ? If it's inside or within the tub area then I agree with you.

IMO under the tub is separated by a permanent barrier so bonding still isn't required.

 

[kwired]

Then they're all wrong.

The wording in 680.74 was changed in the 2014 NEC to include the word "both" indicating that the requirement applies to both the metal parts and metal piping in contact with the circulating water. Water piping feeding or in the vicinity of the tub is not part of the circulating water system and does not require bonding.

Under earlier additions of the NEC the word all was used, if this referenced all metal piping systems that were not part of the water circulation system then then where do you bond the gas pipe?

2011 NEC:
680.74 Bonding. All metal piping systems and all grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

2014 NEC:
680.74 Bonding. Both metal piping systems and grounded metal parts in contact with the circulating water shall be bonded together using a solid copper bonding jumper, insulated, covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG.

Sorry but as I compare the two - I don't see either one requiring to bond the supply water piping unless it is in contact with the circulating water. One maybe can read ROP's and see what was intended, but I don't see that the outcome actually did much.IMO the wording "in contact with the circulating water" is the key words and is in both.

 

[infinity]

Sorry but as I compare the two - I don't see either one requiring to bond the supply water piping unless it is in contact with the circulating water. One maybe can read ROP's and see what was intended, but I don't see that the outcome actually did much.IMO the wording "in contact with the circulating water" is the key words and is in both.

I agree, the requirement hinges on that statement.