Jacuzzi tub "bonding"

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losing the nuetral and ground on a whirlpool tub:

losing the nuetral and ground on a whirlpool tub:

How can a gfci or a breaker trip if the nuetral and ground are open and why do you think the inspector checks to make sure you hook the #8 solid ground wire to the cold water line (when the house is copper pipe) and will make you change it if you put it on the hot line even though the pipes hook to the same parts (faucet)? All whirlpools come with mfg. instructions and when the mfg. instructions require it based on 100-3 and you don't do what the instructions say to do (weather it be bond or ground or use the #8 or don't use it) you may create a hazzard and when someone dies do to electricution and it's found to be your fault then you are likely to go to jail for murder. You all need to use common sence and think about the potential out come on this issue. Most of the mfg. instructions that I have read don't let you use the cold water line and makes you go back to the panel or before water main only because if your hook up on the #8 is after the water meter and the meter is removed or the COLD water pipe is broke between tub and point of attachment on the cold water pipe then you will lose the means of the #8 GROUND and the faucet will become hot on the tub when the black (hot) wire becomes bare and lays up against it, only when the house is plumbed in plastic or the cold water pipe is broke. When you hook the ground clamp on the cold water at the tub and then hook to the motor lug this is a code violation and feel lucky if the inspector is passing your whirlpool wiring cause he or she could make you run it to the panel.
 
wizzzard11 said:
How can a gfci or a breaker trip if the nuetral and ground are open...
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Because a GFCI senses current escaping the circuit a trips. If a person "stands in" for the neutral, then it will trip.

If the load side neutral opens, and somehow the person comes in contact with that neutral, more current will be leaving the GFCI on the load side hot than it will be getting back on the load side neutral. Under those conditions, it's entire job is to trip.


...and why do you think the inspector checks to make sure you hook the #8 solid ground wire to the cold water line (when the house is copper pipe)...
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Because the inspector is either misinformed, or operating on an edition of the NEC prior to the 2005. This was clearly changed in the 2005, 680.74.

...and will make you change it if you put it on the hot line even though the pipes hook to the same parts (faucet)?
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That's just silly. What is the difference between connecting to the hot and cold if they are electrically continuous?

You all need to use common sence and think about the potential out come on this issue.
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You need to calm down, there is no reason to get out of breath on this.

When you hook the ground clamp on the cold water at the tub and then hook to the motor lug this is a code violation and feel lucky if the inspector is passing your whirlpool wiring cause he or she could make you run it to the panel.
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If there is an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in the receptacle, and the cord to the motor, how is the housing of the motor going to become energized and not kick the breaker? We already have a conductor going back to the panel - the EGC, and that's all that's required.

A lug on the motor is to be used for equipotential bonding, if required. Under the 2002, it was.

Have you read the FPN under 680.26?
 
a gfi will not trip with an open nuetral:

a gfi will not trip with an open nuetral:

When I took a disposal cord and wired it with only the black wire hooked to the line brass screw on the gfi and plugged in a disposal cord on the front side then plugged it in to an unprotected gfi receptical I hit the reset button on the gfi and it set leaving me a hot black wire on the front side of the gfi so I tested further on and filled the sink with water (copper lines) I grabbed the hot black wire from the disposal cord that i plugged into the front side of the gfi and touched the water with my finger it was hot and the gfi never tripped because the mechanical function of a gfi as well as an arc fault breaker operate off the neutral and if the nuetral is not present then it will fail.
 
a gfi will not trip with an open nuetral:

a gfi will not trip with an open nuetral:

When I took a disposal cord and wired it with only the black wire hooked to the line brass screw on the gfi and plugged in a disposal cord on the front side then plugged it in to an unprotected gfi receptical I hit the reset button on the gfi and it set leaving me a hot black wire on the front side of the gfi so I tested further on and filled the sink with water (copper lines) I grabbed the hot black wire from the disposal cord that i plugged into the front side of the gfi and touched the water with my finger it was hot and the gfi never tripped because the mechanical function of a gfi as well as an arc fault breaker operate off the neutral and if the nuetral is not present then it will fail.
 
Wizzard, that may well be the case if you mess with the wiring on the line side of a GFI. However, a neutral is not required on the load side of the GFI for the GFI to operate. I believe that was the earlier point.
 
When I wire a whirlpool sometimes I will locate the gfi at the access panel of the tub and in other situations sometimes a gfi breaker any way you look at it there is a hazzard weather the nuetral works it's way off the ground bar in the panel or loosens off the gfi recepticle I will have to do the test on the load nuetral to check that out...lol..my point is a whirlpool may not be safe unless the #8 ground comes directly from the panels ground bar and all metal parts on the tub as well as the motor lug are hooked up.
 
wizzzard11 said:
When I wire a whirlpool sometimes I will locate the gfi at the access panel of the tub and in other situations sometimes a gfi breaker any way you look at it there is a hazzard weather the nuetral works it's way off the ground bar in the panel or loosens off the gfi recepticle...
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Have you encountered more loose connections in jetted tubs than the rest of the house? :confused:

...my point is a whirlpool may not be safe unless the #8 ground comes directly from the panels ground bar and all metal parts on the tub as well as the motor lug are hooked up.
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So, you disagree with the Code Making Panel's decision to nearly eliminate all equipotential bonding requirements for jetted tubs, then? On what basis?
 
Stick, when you think of a good second line to a post, you can always just hit the
edit.gif
button on your post and tack it on. ;) :D

If you get too many posts, people start to talk. :D
 
I have only encountered a breaker losing the nuetral on the load side 1 time when I noticed the installer (whom ever that was) terminated the load nuetral on the breaker so tight that it stripped the threads and became loose. The motor acted as if it wanted to stall but kept running so when I pulled the panel cover off I noticed the load nuetral was a bare wire and it's protective plastic sheathing was melted off the wire about 6 to 8 inches long from arcing. I can't say for sure that the loss of this wire would have resulted in a hot unprotected wire or not but I have encountered repairs on gfci recepticles in numerous occassions for a number of reasons that needed to be replaced or repaired in many areas of the home. The only thing that most of the cases I realized is that it was the appliance's that were causing the wires to become hot such as toasters, hair dryer's, power tools, and on 3 occassions whirlpool motors. Did you ever notice when you plug your wires into a gfi recepticle and go to tighten the screws but they just don't seem to get tight enough? When the appliances, power tools and motors are in use they draw and get the wire hot so when the wire get's hot it shrinks and becomes a much looser fit under the screw of the gfi witch may result in a wire connection failure.
 
Wizzard, in the occasion detailed above, what was the condition of the Equipment Grounding Conductor?

wizzzard11 said:
Did you ever notice when you plug your wires into a gfi recepticle and go to tighten the screws but they just don't seem to get tight enough?
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Yes, I have. I've taken to using my drill to get the screws "tight", and then finishing off the final torque with a flathead screwdriver. GFI backwire screws in particular always seem to be plenty loose after just the drill.

I have seen the same thing happen with an improperly torqued neutral on an AFCI breaker. On siemens breakers, since you need a flathead screwdriver (they're not Robertson like the hot conductor's screw), I found this an especially irritating warranty call, as the drill could not be to blame, just the installer.

So, should we have a redundant EGC for bedrooms, since I found an AFCI breaker that was improperly torqued?

Should the code take precautions against unqualified (or untrained) personnel not tightening screws? Is 110.14 not enough? There is even a FPN to remind the user of the code that terminations need to be torqued to their specifications.

Do you honestly believe you are required to run a redundant EGC back to the panelboard because someone could make a sloppy connection in the panel or at a GFI under the tub? Can you show me where you see that in the words of the code? :)
 
If the tub (or pool for that matter) is properly BONDED, then there is little or no additional safety FOR PERSONS IN THE TUB, acieved by grounding the tub by installing a redundant ground back to the service panel. Yes the motor may overheat and melt wires. Yes it COULD melt just the neutral and ground wire leaving the hot energized. Yes I COULD be abducted by aliens. Yes I could inherit a million dollars, but none of these are very likely to happen. The fact is, if all metal parts in contact with the water or reachable by someone in the tub are bonded together - even if they become energized - there will be no potential voltage difference between them and there will be no danger for someone using the tub. A GFCI measures the current in the hot conductor and compares it to the current flowing in the neutral. If the difference between these exceed a certain amount, the device will open to stop the flow. If there is current flowing in the hot conductor and the neutral is open the GFCI will operate regardless of the path that the return current is taking - it may be the equipment ground, it may be water pipes, it may be through the water itself, or through the earth - it does not matter the GFCI will open if it is working properly. Hot tubs, hydro massage tubs, and swimming pools must be BONDED, meaning that all metal in the vicinity of the unit is connected together. The unit is GROUNDED by the equipment grounding conductor that supplies the motor or other electrical equipment associated with the unit. A properly BONDED unit does not rely on grounding for safety. The EGC is there to facilitate the operation of the overcurrent device, not to provide electrical safety for the user.
 
haskindm said:
Hot tubs, hydro massage tubs, and swimming pools must be BONDED, meaning that all metal in the vicinity of the unit is connected together.
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I agreed with you until you included hydromassage tubs. They do not require any bonding of surrounding metal unless it is directly associated with the water circulation system.
 
georgestolz said:
I don't think so...? Maybe? Not that I noticed.

You know about the other thread going too, right?
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Thanks George and Bob, I thought that I was going crazy. Now I see some of the info in the other thread.
 
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