jeffy (High Electric Bill Diagnosis)

Status
Not open for further replies.
But wait, there's more!

If the upper element burns out, the recovery will be slower, but overall, the electric demand should be the same. If the lower element burns out, the hot water will run out faster.

With the same hot water usage, the overall monthly demand should not rise because either element burns out. The water heater merely replaces heat lost. The perceived performance loss will be obvious.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
I am not sure but I have always been told by the HO that there bills were higher till I fixed the element. Maybe not but I was thinking the elements would cycle on a lot more and run for a longer period of time.

Since one is at the top of the tank and the other is at the bottom the amount of hot water available is definitely decreased so I thought it made sense that the elements would be on for a longer period of time since the bottom eleemnt preheats for the top.
Click to expand...
The only way I knew my element was bad was that my water was much hotter than usual
 
jrannis said:
The only way I knew my element was bad was that my water was much hotter than usual
Click to expand...

I am not sure how that would happen. I could see that the upper thermostat was stuck then it would heat to the point of tripping the high limit switch.

How would a bad element raise the temp of the water??
 
LarryFine said:
But wait, there's more!

If the upper element burns out, the recovery will be slower, but overall, the electric demand should be the same. If the lower element burns out, the hot water will run out faster.

With the same hot water usage, the overall monthly demand should not rise because either element burns out. The water heater merely replaces heat lost. The perceived performance loss will be obvious.
Click to expand...
If the upper element burns out the water heater will not function unless the upper t-stat is broken also.
 
I think we're getting away from the OP's request (but it's always nice to learn more)...
Check all the circuits with an ammeter and see if one has an unusually high draw. (Not surprising that the POCO didn't find anything wrong with the meter. Too much money coming in from our meter?? Impossible!)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If the bill is truely too high for the amount of energy supposedly used then I would check for a wire that may be shorting somewhere. I had a similar problem years ago at a job. I found an old underground wire that was energized and cut off-- it was leaking to ground and running the bill up. At least that apparently stopped the problem.
Click to expand...
Why wouldnt this trip the ocpd
 
fireryan said:
Why wouldnt this trip the ocpd
Click to expand...
No enough draw to exceed the breaker's rating, but enough to waste energy 24/7. Seen it a few times. In one, the snow was always melted over the short.
 
I have relocated comments regarding driving a ground rod and energizing it to determine resistances. This is a dangerous practice, and open discussion of it is tantamount to encouragement, and it is not a practice to be encouraged.
 
I've seen the element run 24/7 also, one side of it has a constant feed (120v to ground)

the other side of the element was broke off inside the tank but only about

1/8" away from the metal tank, it was close enough to complete the circuit.

If a customer has real hot water all of a sudden, this could be one reason

why.
 
as Frank noted, an element can "burn" allowing the unswitched phase to "leak" currrent into the water 24/7.
also, as he stated, one clue is water being hotter than usual.
 
I have nieghbor who has complained about spending 5x's as much as I do for the same sized house for electricity - but this man is a sports fan with 15 large tvs around the house and several TiVo's, satelite dishes a cable box - then every other of his many electronic gadgets also have something simular about them - they are all on "stand-by" power even if not being used.... He also has an electric dryer his wife runs constantly - and a few space heaters.... :rolleyes:
 
I do a lot of upgrades and panel changes. I always try my best to balance the loads.

I have had more than one customer, several in fact, that have told me when I run into them later that they have noticed a decrease in electric bill since I did my thing. I don't mind taking credit for the percieved decrease. :cool: But after several times it has made me wonder if a properly balanced load can effect the bill in some way that I havn't thought of.
 
ElectricianJeff said:
But after several times it has made me wonder if a properly balanced load can effect the bill in some way that I havn't thought of.
Click to expand...

Most residential meters are not 'Blondel compliant' and only measure the line-line supply voltage. You are then charged for 1/2 line A current * lineline voltage + 1/2 line B current * line-line voltage.

This only approximates the 'correct' metering which would measure the two line-neutral voltages and multiply by the respective line current.

If uneven loading causes uneven voltage drop on the two legs, then this will inflate the metered value.

As I recall, with reasonable voltage drop, such uneven loading will introduce a small fraction of a % error.

-Jon
 
080804-1209 EST

winnie:

I think I would describe function as follows:

The meter output reading is the time integral of the instantaneous value of
Vline-to-line * the in phase component of (Iline1 - Iline2) * a scaling factor (instantaneous values here).
Assume a steady-state resistive loading on only one side, then the result is
0.5 * Vline-to-line * Iline1 (RMS values here).
If Vline-to-neutral on one side drops 10%, then Vline1-to-neutral becomes 0.9*V and actual power used is 0.9*V*I. The meter will calculate 0.95*0.5*2*V*I = 0.95*V*I and thus you are overcharged by 5% as seen at the meter point.

If I split the same load current in half and balance the load on the meter, then
I get 2*(0.95*V*I/2) = 0.95*V*I.

Is it correct to say the current is constant? Maybe and maybe not. Incandescent lamps may approximate a constant current load. Motor input current may go up as voltage goes down. So the problem is more complex than my equations above.

But note that a 5% problem is not the implication of the original post.

.
 
Last edited:
buckofdurham said:
We use to get lot's of renters complaining about the power bill being to high.
Click to expand...

Years ago one of my friends was doing the complaining! Turned out his apartment's panel was feeding lights in four storage closets...his closet and his three neighbors. One of the neighbors was running a freezer in his closet from a screw-in adapter.
 
benaround said:
I've seen the element run 24/7 also, one side of it has a constant feed (120v to ground)

the other side of the element was broke off inside the tank but only about

1/8" away from the metal tank, it was close enough to complete the circuit.

If a customer has real hot water all of a sudden, this could be one reason

why.
Click to expand...

I did pull out a broken element. I was back to normal when I changed it.
Seems like the thermostat only controls one leg of the 220 like some AC units
 
jrannis said:
Seems like the thermostat only controls one leg of the 220 like some AC units
Click to expand...
That's absolutely correct:

waterheater1.jpg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top