Jockey pump and fire pump

[Tulsa Electrician]

So I say
No
No
No
I would to also add serbice rated ats controller

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Service
Sorry
I have seen it both way in different states.
One said jockey must and other said did not.
It pays to ask

 

[hhsting]

As Tom suggested, I would not make any decision without consulting NFPA20.
The jockey pump is allowed to be fed by the fire pump service although the ones I have seen were on the building service.

695.4(A) might play a part concerning the "direct connection to the fire pump controller"
An additional service is allowed up to 6 disconnects but the mechanics of adding one while conmpying with 695.4 wouod be trick IMO.

But going to post #1 sketch and post #1 three questions i cannot find that in NFPA 20. Thats all is more like NEC????

I am still confuse as to where to find post #1 questions

 

[hhsting]

I say it not a jockey pump since a jockey pump is not related to normal water supply. The jockey pump maintains ( maintenance/ maintain pump) pressure on the fire (sprinkler)systems to prevent false alarms.
Let's say they have a roof tank and use this for gravity feed normal water supply and fire suppression. This would be normal water supply and fire protection. This would be the water pump feeding this system. Then exception would apply.
This pump would be allowed to be remote and would count as one of the six handles.

Jockey pump is not related to normal water supply??

If thats true then service rated controller jockey pump post #1 need to be grouped with switchboard

 

[GoldDigger]

Jockey pump is not related to normal water supply??

If thats true then service rated controller jockey pump post #1 need to be grouped with switchboard

Unless it is locally required to be on alternate power, in which case it must be remote.
The two requirements interact. We cannot evaluate the one-line without knowing the applicable local code(s) (or locally applicable codes?)

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I would yes and no depending on ahj.
The jockey pump could be fed from panel board on the emergency feed.
This panel board would be fed from one of the six and a secondary source through an ATS. This secondary source would also feed the fire pump ATS service rated controller. In this case the secondary source a back up generator sized for the fire pump.

 

[hhsting]

Where a jockey pump is not required to on any of the alternate power systems, the disconnect is not required to be remote. (See answer to your other jockey pump question.)
Local codes may have different rules than NFPA 20 or NFPA 101.

There is no local rules where this is at. There is no local code where this is at which says jockey pump require on alternate power.

I still dont get it. Post #1 attachment the jockey pump controller is tapped ahead of main service discos. The main service controller is located remote from swbds service. NFPA 20 says about jockey pump disconnect to be remote? I thought that is in NEC?

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Now for an alternate way based on an AHJ.
No back up generator.
Buss tap ahead of main to Fire pump controller. Did not add ats.
Jockey pump on this same tap in separate controller.
Now the ahj says if you have a normal water supply based on tower location the normal water supply pump can be used as fire protection. What's key is the building rated type and tower location in relation to the building location and use.
One more. No fire pump and using tower location. Let's say four stories and there is a normal water supply(pressure) pump for the building which is also used for the fire sprinkler system.
This pump is used for both and exception would apply. This type would also have a jockey pump and would not be required to be on a buss tap ahead of service. No back up required.
You can see how AHJ for each location has to be used.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Sorry I guess I don't understand.
Going to look at drawing again and read last statement. Then try again

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

"The main service controller is located remote from swbds service."
?
Did you mean fire pump controller, jockey pump controller or both.

 

[hhsting]

"The main service controller is located remote from swbds service."
?
Did you mean fire pump controller, jockey pump controller or both.

Both service rated controller are located remote separate room from the main service swbd

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Going reread nfpa 20 and applicable NEC

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Going reread nfpa 20 and applicable NEC
I understand what your asking now.
Where in the NEC is this allowed to have both according to the drawing.
The wire way tap to both.
Instead having a proper sized service rated disc than to controllers or an ATS controller via tap.
Is that it ?

 

[hhsting]

Going reread nfpa 20 and applicable NEC
I understand what your asking now.
Where in the NEC is this allowed to have both according to the drawing.
The wire way tap to both.
Instead having a proper sized service rated disc than to controllers or an ATS controller via tap.
Is that it ?

3 questions:

1. Where in code it says jockey pump service rated controller allowed to be remote from main service swbd 6 main service breakers or groped together? Their is no alternate power req by local code

2. Service swbd already has 6 main service disco would jockey pump service rated controller count as 7 service disco or not in code?

3. Does jockey pump count as water pump or not?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

I have seen it both ways. And yes if that is it, an AHJ required it done each way. I have even seen it double taped on load side of disc using double barrel lugs as well.
This when an non service rated controller was used with no ats.

One said can only have one additional and the other said each has to have there own.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Yep understand clearly now

 

[hhsting]

Yep understand clearly now

I dont follow. Understand what? I still dont get it. Post #34 and post #1 together explain questions.

I am still confused no clear responses from anyone

 

[augie47]

The only problem I would have with it as drawn is, to me, a grey area and that is what I mentioned in Post #19:
695.4(A) Direct Connection. The supply conductors shall directly connect the power source to a listed fire pump controller, a listed combination fire pump controller and power transfer switch, or a listed fire pump power transfer switch.
Depending on how you made your tap to the jockey pump in the wireway would you possibly violate the "direct connection" ? By using a split bolt I;d see no problem, a polaris connector where you actually cut the conductor would be questionable to me but that's a field decision not one with which plans review should be concerned.

 

[Tulsa Electrician]

Understand clearly your question.

 

[hhsting]

The only problem I would have with it as drawn is, to me, a grey area and that is what I mentioned in Post #19:
695.4(A) Direct Connection. The supply conductors shall directly connect the power source to a listed fire pump controller, a listed combination fire pump controller and power transfer switch, or a listed fire pump power transfer switch.
Depending on how you made your tap to the jockey pump in the wireway would you possibly violate the "direct connection" ? By using a split bolt I;d see no problem, a polaris connector where you actually cut the conductor would be questionable to me but that's a field decision not one with which plans review should be concerned.

Ok but one of the problems I have is that from the sketch their is one service conductor to the main service switchboard which is tapped ahead of swbd main service disco in compartment swbd. The tap is still the same service conductor not separate one.

I see exception for Fire pump main service disconnect but didnt find where in NEC 2017 the jockey pump main service disconnect is allowed to be remote Not grouped from the Swbd main service disconnects?