journeyman required?

[binney]

I'm curious what other states or other jurisdiction require to be on a job site. Here in WI, the state does not require a journeyman or master to be anywhere in site. As long as there's a master to start the company he doesn't even have to be in the state, ex:the 6-7 months of the year the boss is at his house in Arizona.

The company I currently work at, I'm the only journeyman out of our 20 fild men. There are some cities that require 1 J-man for each helper. The easy way around that is don't call inspection untill all the guys are off the job. This works most of the time, but there is that rare ocassion where you get caught. Last one I seen was about 2 years ago $400 to the worker not the company. My current company says they'll reimburse you if your fined, that wasn't the case for a friend of mine.

I personally feel there should be a j-man required on every job. Last year I was layed off for several months, Who wants to hire a j-man @ $20/hr when they can hire just anyone off the stree for 1/2 that price. With are economy the way it is, there's plenty of guys out there who will do it.

Sorry! It's late, I can't sleep, and I rambling.
What do you think?
About the j-man on the site, not my rambling.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: journeyman required?

Binnie im in that situation right now.For TAMPA FL at $17 i am at top or dam near top pay as a crew leader.Have now been out of work 5 months.
They all like my qualifications but when you mention 17 they say stuff like my top man only gets 15.
FL has a few counties where you must have a journeyman but no limit to how many helpers under him.Tampa doesn't require any journeyman.
A master could and some do ,have 200 men in more than 1 county.There is no way that master will even see all the jobs.What i call this is a master re licensing anyone off the street to do electric.
If they checked this area i dought they could find 10% of the men even able to pass a journeymans test.and even less that have one.

[ December 21, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[binney]

Re: journeyman required?

Most of the guys I work with, including some of our leadman have never seen the inside of a code book. We were required by our company to attend a code class on WI's code. Some of the guys were sleeping, some were playing video games on there phone. When I asked them afterward why they weren't paying attention, they figured they'd never need to know this sh*t. BUT THEY WORK CHEAP , and the truth is there doing the job.

 

[jimwalker]

Re: journeyman required?

And they will continue to work cheap the rest of there life.If we passed a law tomorrow that said 1 journeyman to a helper the pay would jump real high for the journeyman and 90% of the others would be unemployed

 

[jxofaltrds]

Re: journeyman required?

"A master could and some do ,have 200 men in more than 1 county"

It is the same here in Ohio.

"Most of the guys I work with, including some of our leadman have never seen the inside of a code book"

A what book??

Mike P.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: journeyman required?

Is this a city or union thing? I have never heard of this type of rule, even when I lived on LI and did some work in the city.

This doesn't sound like any rule that could be even remotely enforced outside of a city's or union's jurisdiction. I know for fact you could never enforce it around here without having an inspector or town official going around from job to job checking up. Heck, I don't think I've ever even seen an OSHA official on a job yet.

$17 is TOP pay in Fla. I hope your cost of living is very low. $20-$30 is average for a GOOD journeyman around here. Down near NYC is WAY higher but the cost of living is enormous.

 

[iwire]

Re: journeyman required?

It sure is different State to State.

In MA and RI a Journeyman can only have one apprentice under their supervision.

MA and RI have State licensing investigators and these guys are all business, if you are not following the rules when they show up the work will cease and the company will be fined.

In MA a Journeyman can with insurance pull a permit.

In RI you need a masters license to pull permits.

In either state no apprentice can perform electric work without a journeyman or Master on site.

 

[roger]

Re: journeyman required?

In our city it is one to one, and the inspectors will pull card checks when they suspect you're out of ratio.

Many out of town or state contractors come here not believing it.

They will win the contract and then get shut down, then they will scramble to hire licensed people but usually end up contracting a local EC to labor broker the job.

They leave town having lost their derri?re and ruining the chance for the owner, and an up and up local EC to have had a good job.

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: journeyman required?

Roger at least they are trying to do something.
If the fine was maybe 500 first time and 5000 second and 3 strikes no license i bet it would work.
Am curious as to the wages average card holding journeymen make compared to the un carded men.
Would think this would make a man want the card.
In Tampa FL most men say why would they want a card , it is good for only one thing and that is to get a master.So why buy a NEC and pay for test and card? Sad but true we have some very poor quality work here.

 

[roger]

Re: journeyman required?

Jim, I know where you are coming from, and I actually think "one to one" is a little on the extreme side. I think a journeyman should be allowed to supervise 2 if not 3 apprentices especially if one is upwards of 2nd to 3rd year.

On the other hand, "one to one" does give companies a true incentive to train and educate the apprentices.

When a person has completed his/her training and passes the Journeyman test, we compensate them in the way of a pretty decent raise.

We are a merit shop, and merit goes along way in promotion.

I agree that there are too many out there "claiming" to be electricians that go thru everyday tasks out of "habit vs knowledge" of why they are doing it.

Here is the truth of the matter, raises are not the big reason an apprentice tries to excel, it is self achievement.

Contrary to belief; a compliment, a job that is fun, a working system at the end of the day, going home to brag to friends or family members, etc... means more than money.

Don't get me wrong, they still have to be compensated in the areas average, but money is not the key.

Roger

 

[jimwalker]

Re: journeyman required?

Should be easy to find un carded men.They know where homes are being built.Set the fines high enough to support the cost and have the inspectors while on regular inspections check everyone.Maybe an incentive like $100 per man caught.And don't fine the man ,fine the company.
And give that job a 2 hour inspection.

[ December 21, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[speedypetey]

Re: journeyman required?

Just what kind of jobs are you guys talking about? Small commercial? Heavy industrial? Residential?
Who are the inspectors coming to look? Local electrical inspectors or town/city guys?
What is a "carded" man? Do you mean union cards?


Sorry for all the questions. I have just never heard such a discussion before.

[ December 21, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: speedypetey ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: journeyman required?

By carded i mean men with current journeymans card.Many are fine journeymen but lack the card.
This should apply to ALL jobs, com.,res,ind,remodels,service calls.
The licensing board would be the ones to check.
Don't worry this will never take place it's just a dream where good electricians get job's and pay to match.

 

[tim]

Re: journeyman required?

In central Illinois I would say 1/3 of electricians are non-union. This 1/3 does 95% of all residential wiring. There are no state, local, or county rules that state what the helper to card carring ratio is as far as I know. In my company we have my father of 45 plus years, me of 21 years, and a new guy of 2 years. The new guy would never be allowed to work alone. This is just our own rule. Anyone from this part of the state know what the union ratios are? Thanks Tim. PS- I personaly think the state of Illinois should have some sort of state wide license.

[ December 21, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: tim ]

 

[roger]

Re: journeyman required?

Jim you are right in this part of your post,

By carded i mean men with current journeyman's card.

Myself and others have already pointed out that this is real, which negates this

The licensing board would be the ones to check.
Don't worry this will never take place it's just a dream

part of your post.

Speedypetey, industrial may not fall under the AHJ outside of the facility, so we would be talking about another situation, as far as commercial or residential, they both must meet the ratio.


Roger

[ December 21, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: roger ]

 

[speedypetey]

Re: journeyman required?

Wow! I guess in NY with all of it's hundreds of licences we never got involved with this outside of the union.

Unfortunately there are still many, many places anyone can work, even without a license. In these areas you can even call yourself an electrician and no one can say anything. As long as work requiring an inspection gets inspected.

 

[roger]

Re: journeyman required?

Speedypety, in reality the "no license" situation is the dominant situation.

In my state Of NC, the license requirement is not the norm for most municipalities, and as Jim said, it is not required in his area.

Until this changes, AFCI's are the least of our worries.

Roger

 

[iwire]

Re: journeyman required?

Originally posted by roger:
I actually think "one to one" is a little on the extreme side. I think a journeyman should be allowed to supervise 2 if not 3 apprentices especially if one is upwards of 2nd to 3rd year.

Roger do you end up on jobs that require a 2 to 1 ratio? (2 Journeymen to 1 Apprentice)

 

[hurk27]

Re: journeyman required?

SpeedyPetey

Journeyman and master cards are cards you would get when you past the required state or local test. These are done at state and local levels through out the country and has nothing to do with the j-card you get from the union. But there are many areas that do not require any test so it would depend on what is required in your area. To have a AHJ enforce this requirement. It would first have to pass into law by adoption or admendments to the state law. Here in Indiana the bill 1498 did not make it so we again are left with out any state license, But many local units of goverment have license requirments. But no requirment to carry any card. just to pass (their) test. which is different in each one. We even have some that require that you hold the county license before you can get their license. It's very political around here.

 

[speedypetey]

Re: journeyman required?

At the risk of sounding crazy, that is some politics I wouldn't mind having. I have been saying for years there should be some validation of electricians. We have no tests or schooling other than union apprenticeship. Which in my area is sparse.
Like I said, around here anyone can call themselves an electrician. I wish there were some way make someone prove it, at least before they ask for journeyman wages.