Junction box sizing?

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ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
Exactly what the code requires.
Thank you. Why I got your ear. I will research later, but is there a required depth to the box? I believe there is a depth requirement when the conductors come into the box from the rear. What about conduits entering and leaving the side.
I usually just wing it with what I think I can work with, how it would look, and what the supplier has in stock.
I’ll look later.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
First you said 4/3 now you are saying 6/3. Also 6/3 would fit in a conduit smaller than 2" for sure.

Also I would think you would size the raceway based on the wires themselves not the cable.
Dennis, I would like to apologize. I'm trying to figure out what the equation was for sizing the nmb in a conduit. mils x.0000007854 (but I'm missing something I think) to get area, then that number to be under 53% of trade size. Long story short I think I'm missing part of the equation but my older notes show the 6-3 in a 1 ". The 1/2 " is also good for 12-2nmb. I think the 2" may have be for 6-3 uf. Either way, I stand corrected I think, sorry.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Thank you. Why I got your ear. I will research later, but is there a required depth to the box? I believe there is a depth requirement when the conductors come into the box from the rear. What about conduits entering and leaving the side.
I usually just wing it with what I think I can work with, how it would look, and what the supplier has in stock.
I’ll look later.
If the conductors don't go out the back, the only requirement for depth is that the conduits and there locknuts fit in the box.
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
I'm really beating this dead horse.
the original 12-2 in a 3/4" that is also uf. 12-2 nmb is 1/2"
the 6-3 nmb is 1"
the 4-3 and 2-3 nmb is 1 1/4"

My top post # 19 was uf.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
I'm really beating this dead horse.
the original 12-2 in a 3/4" that is also uf. 12-2 nmb is 1/2"
the 6-3 nmb is 1"
the 4-3 and 2-3 nmb is 1 1/4"
You're talking about the minimum size of a conduit that it would be OK to run the cable in for a complete conduit system.

But for junction box sizing with #4 and up, for sizing you use the smallest size of a conduit that could carry all the individual conductors if they weren't in a cable.

Cheers, Wayne
 

ritelec

Senior Member
Location
Jersey
You're talking about the minimum size of a conduit that it would be OK to run the cable in for a complete conduit system.

But for junction box sizing with #4 and up, for sizing you use the smallest size of a conduit that could carry all the individual conductors if they weren't in a cable.

Cheers, Wayne
Yes, thank you Wayne

To note the numbers I referenced. There's a number I'm missing in the equation that I can't get. But the chart at SOUTHWIRE nominal width (mils) has increased and are larger than my numbers on my work sheet. Conduit sizes may have increased ? FWIW
 

don_resqcapt19

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Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Yes, thank you Wayne

To note the numbers I referenced. There's a number I'm missing in the equation that I can't get. But the chart at SOUTHWIRE nominal width (mils) has increased and are larger than my numbers on my work sheet. Conduit sizes may have increased ? FWIW
conduit dimensions have not changed in many many decades.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
This is a tangent to the original discussion:

When a cable assembly is run on a conduit, you treat the cable as if it were round with a diameter equal to the maximum diameter of the cable.

Area of a circle is proportional to diameter^2, and for a single conductor in a conduit the maximum allowed area is 53% of the conduit ID.

This gives you:
<max cable diameter> * 1/(sqrt(.53)) = <min conduit ID>

Cable diameter * 1.37 = conduit ID
 

topgone

Senior Member
This is a tangent to the original discussion:

When a cable assembly is run on a conduit, you treat the cable as if it were round with a diameter equal to the maximum diameter of the cable.

Area of a circle is proportional to diameter^2, and for a single conductor in a conduit the maximum allowed area is 53% of the conduit ID.

This gives you:
<max cable diameter> * 1/(sqrt(.53)) = <min conduit ID>

Cable diameter * 1.37 = conduit ID
We'll just KISS it! 53% conduit fill for single conductor, 31% fill for 2 conductors, and 40% fill for more than 3 conductors.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Not the conduit dimension, the cable nominal width dimensions.
Yes, NM is much smaller now and that is one reason I find a lot more areas where I will consider NM subject to physical damage that I would have 30 - 40 years ago. The older jacket was much thicker and much tougher.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Yes, NM is much smaller now and that is one reason I find a lot more areas where I will consider NM subject to physical damage that I would have 30 - 40 years ago. The older jacket was much thicker and much tougher.
IMO, something is either subject to damage or it is not. Whether the NM is tougher or less tougher than it used to be does not enter into the "subject to damage" criteria.
 
IMO, something is either subject to damage or it is not. Whether the NM is tougher or less tougher than it used to be does not enter into the "subject to damage" criteria.
I don't see why you can't take into account the material used. For example nm, mc and PVC sched 40 are all subject to the physical damage criteria. It Seems reasonable that some are tougher than others and thus may not be subject to physical damage while another would.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
IMO, something is either subject to damage or it is not. Whether the NM is tougher or less tougher than it used to be does not enter into the "subject to damage" criteria.
Subject to physical damage is based on the likely hood of the installed wiring method being damaged.

Both NM and MC are not permitted to be installed where subject to physical damage. MC is permitted in locations where NM would be red tagged as being subject to physical damage.
 
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