Junctioning Home runs
- Thread starter bmac10
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Re: Junctioning Home runs
What point are you trying to make in the on-going personal attack on physis in this thread....What constructive purpose could this serve, but other to inflame him...I don't get it...
drg,Originally posted by drg
Now you really need to get over yourself.
What point are you trying to make in the on-going personal attack on physis in this thread....What constructive purpose could this serve, but other to inflame him...I don't get it...
Re: Junctioning Home runs
OK you asked , after 38 posts not once was a NEC article mentioned .
I tried to explain earlier that the NEC was not the only thing learned her on this forum only to have one of my quotes thrown back at me.
If you have been follwing the posts maybe you would understand what I have been trying to convey....read again without being so sympathetic to the wrong cause.
OK you asked , after 38 posts not once was a NEC article mentioned .
I tried to explain earlier that the NEC was not the only thing learned her on this forum only to have one of my quotes thrown back at me.
If you have been follwing the posts maybe you would understand what I have been trying to convey....read again without being so sympathetic to the wrong cause.
busman
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern Virginia
- Occupation
- Master Electrician / Electrical Engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
This member expressed what I was talking about earlier:
" To reply to the first post, what is the difference between a homerun or any other part of the circuit? It's still just part of the circuit. If you have to do it, do it. "
The perceived issue with homeruns is that they are frequently associated with individual branch circuits which are usually a straight connection from the panel to the outlet. It seems "sloppy" to have a splice in what could be a point-to-point connection, but from a logical point of view this has no merit. It is in the same league with non-square conduit runs; not illegal, but maybe un-workmanlike?
Just my 2 cents.
Mark
This member expressed what I was talking about earlier:
" To reply to the first post, what is the difference between a homerun or any other part of the circuit? It's still just part of the circuit. If you have to do it, do it. "
The perceived issue with homeruns is that they are frequently associated with individual branch circuits which are usually a straight connection from the panel to the outlet. It seems "sloppy" to have a splice in what could be a point-to-point connection, but from a logical point of view this has no merit. It is in the same league with non-square conduit runs; not illegal, but maybe un-workmanlike?
Just my 2 cents.
Mark
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Bus,Just like the rest of us,my work is my signiture.I try to convey the greatest of pride,in any installation put forth.And at rational man hour-rate,I might add.Given the situation,in the first post.Can't say that I would have approached this "patch-and-fix job" any differantly,as stated..With safety being my ultimate goal.. I agree...
Bus,Just like the rest of us,my work is my signiture.I try to convey the greatest of pride,in any installation put forth.And at rational man hour-rate,I might add.Given the situation,in the first post.Can't say that I would have approached this "patch-and-fix job" any differantly,as stated..With safety being my ultimate goal.. I agree...
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Junctioning Home runs
And for the record, I've seen others and said myself on occasion that a topic was a little weird to be debated. I'm glad I wasn't basted and picked on for it.
[ January 21, 2005, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
While you seem elated at this fact, I would be disappointed. This is a code forum, and often, the best answer can be found in the code.
If you read the sentence you wrote immediately following your innocuous "not the only thing" comment, you will find an unexpected and unwarranted attack on Physis. Was he not supposed to respond?
You seem to be trying to convey that you have no manners. I'll read it a third time and see if there's any subtle underpinning I missed. If a member says something apologetic in regards to a statement made, it is extremely bad form to continue to pursue that member. We shouldn't have to walk on egg shells, we should feel free to speak our minds. Sometimes that may come off in an offensive tone that wasn't intended. It can be difficult to convey emotion on this forum--it consists of words, not faces. If an apology is rendered, accept it and move on.
And for the record, I've seen others and said myself on occasion that a topic was a little weird to be debated. I'm glad I wasn't basted and picked on for it.
[ January 21, 2005, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Hospital Master Electrician
Re: Junctioning Home runs
If my opinion would add anything to this thread, I'll say this: I take it for granted that an experienced, qualified electrician, knowing the limits of his capabilities and the limits imposed by how much damage will be inflicted on a structure to obtain a desired goal, will weigh all options before either destroying a wall to get to an otherwise inaccessible panel, or junction in the attic above a perfectly accessible one.
I take that for granted. Hence, I would be inclined to be curious as to why it's a debate. It seems to me to be a judgement call in the field. I have bolded the key aspects of my statement to clarify this as an opinion, not my requirement of my fellow electricians.
Happy Friday, all.
If my opinion would add anything to this thread, I'll say this: I take it for granted that an experienced, qualified electrician, knowing the limits of his capabilities and the limits imposed by how much damage will be inflicted on a structure to obtain a desired goal, will weigh all options before either destroying a wall to get to an otherwise inaccessible panel, or junction in the attic above a perfectly accessible one.
I take that for granted. Hence, I would be inclined to be curious as to why it's a debate. It seems to me to be a judgement call in the field. I have bolded the key aspects of my statement to clarify this as an opinion, not my requirement of my fellow electricians.
Happy Friday, all.
- Location
- Mission Viejo, CA
- Occupation
- Professional Electrical Engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
I'm returning this topic, but I have deleted a sub-thread that is inappropriate to the forum. Please review the "Rules, Policies and Disclaimers" page.
I'm returning this topic, but I have deleted a sub-thread that is inappropriate to the forum. Please review the "Rules, Policies and Disclaimers" page.
bubbablues
Member
Re: Junctioning Home runs
I hate to start up this debate again but I simply had to add my 2 cents.
I agree that this is a judgment call weighing heavily not just on your workmanship and reputation, but customer satisfaction and peace of mind.
It?s very true that a perfectly prepared splice, in a perfect environment will see no problems but we all know it?s not a perfect world. Sh*t happens and no one?s perfect.
This is not trivial. No one here mentioned the potential problems associated to voltage drops and high resistance relating to poor, loose or corroded splice connections.
See: http://www.psihq.com/iread/faqvolt.htm for info on this subject.
"The NFPA reports that from 1988-1992, there was an average annual total of 446,300 fires in homes, resulting in 3,860 Deaths and $4.4 Billion property damage.
42,300 (9%) of these fires were caused each year by Electrical Distribution Systems. The largest portion of fires caused by electrical distribution systems (48%) were caused by faulty fixed wiring, receptacles and switches".
Was this poor workmanship, environmental stress and corrosion issues, or a little of each.
What everyone here agrees on is that most points of failure happen at the splice and every added splice is another point of potential failure.
Depending on the quantity of splices required for the repair, especially in a fire repair situations, you may be leaving the homeowner with a lot more potential problems than they had prior to their loss.
If the customer is satisfied and you can both sleep at night then you did the right thing.
I hate to start up this debate again but I simply had to add my 2 cents.
I agree that this is a judgment call weighing heavily not just on your workmanship and reputation, but customer satisfaction and peace of mind.
It?s very true that a perfectly prepared splice, in a perfect environment will see no problems but we all know it?s not a perfect world. Sh*t happens and no one?s perfect.
This is not trivial. No one here mentioned the potential problems associated to voltage drops and high resistance relating to poor, loose or corroded splice connections.
See: http://www.psihq.com/iread/faqvolt.htm for info on this subject.
"The NFPA reports that from 1988-1992, there was an average annual total of 446,300 fires in homes, resulting in 3,860 Deaths and $4.4 Billion property damage.
42,300 (9%) of these fires were caused each year by Electrical Distribution Systems. The largest portion of fires caused by electrical distribution systems (48%) were caused by faulty fixed wiring, receptacles and switches".
Was this poor workmanship, environmental stress and corrosion issues, or a little of each.
What everyone here agrees on is that most points of failure happen at the splice and every added splice is another point of potential failure.
Depending on the quantity of splices required for the repair, especially in a fire repair situations, you may be leaving the homeowner with a lot more potential problems than they had prior to their loss.
If the customer is satisfied and you can both sleep at night then you did the right thing.
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Don
Nobody really knows that. These numbers are based on the fire cause and origin reports made, in most cases by the local fire department, without any input from an electrical professional. There is pressure to list a cause for every fire and a "when in doubt, it's electrical" mentality on the part of many fire investigators. I have read more than one report listing the cause as electrical when there was no electrical service to the building. I have no doubt that a large number of fires are, in fact, of electrical origin, but I don't really believe that the number is anywhere near as high as quoted. This same misinformation was used extensively to get the AFCI requirement into the code.
Don
petersonra
Senior Member
- Location
- Northern illinois
- Occupation
- Semi-retired engineer
Re: Junctioning Home runs
It seems to me that any connection point such as at a switch or outlet is just as much a hazard as a splice is, maybe even more so.
Outlets and switches get jostled and flex some in normal use, and over time might come loose. Splices in a jbox hidden away someplace they will never be touched might well last forever.
<added> If the wire nuts bother you, use a more permanent splice like a terminal block or a crimp on wire nut.
[ January 28, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
It seems to me that any connection point such as at a switch or outlet is just as much a hazard as a splice is, maybe even more so.
Outlets and switches get jostled and flex some in normal use, and over time might come loose. Splices in a jbox hidden away someplace they will never be touched might well last forever.
<added> If the wire nuts bother you, use a more permanent splice like a terminal block or a crimp on wire nut.
[ January 28, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: petersonra ]
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Bubba-( Mr.general contractor)It's perfectly understandable that you don't want splices,in the homeruns,in your garage ceiling of your "gold medalion" home,after this fire in said garage.As in remembering,in more that one form topic thread.It's probably not very esthetic looking..Safe, might be another matter.Splices are made in wiring, all of the time.At some point,you had spices in your house before the fire sir.--"Senario"--If you are out driving in your car,wrecked and damaged one fender and hood, and a tirerod.Insurance company,will replace,make safe, not going to paint the whole car.This is infact same argument.Meaning if you want the whole car painted, to original condition,open your wallet.
You stated electrician came in and spliced wires in garage,to make safe so you could occupy.(done deal in argument right there).Insurance Company stance:If safe then after Mr. electrician left,then why not safe now? Didn't you return w/your family and sleep under this same roof after mr. electrician departed.Long and short of it is,want differant,then open up the wallet again.May not be pretty in the garage ceiling.But if you didn't think it was safe,you and family still be in the motel wouldn't you..You got a up-hill fight, good luck..
Bubba-( Mr.general contractor)It's perfectly understandable that you don't want splices,in the homeruns,in your garage ceiling of your "gold medalion" home,after this fire in said garage.As in remembering,in more that one form topic thread.It's probably not very esthetic looking..Safe, might be another matter.Splices are made in wiring, all of the time.At some point,you had spices in your house before the fire sir.--"Senario"--If you are out driving in your car,wrecked and damaged one fender and hood, and a tirerod.Insurance company,will replace,make safe, not going to paint the whole car.This is infact same argument.Meaning if you want the whole car painted, to original condition,open your wallet.
You stated electrician came in and spliced wires in garage,to make safe so you could occupy.(done deal in argument right there).Insurance Company stance:If safe then after Mr. electrician left,then why not safe now? Didn't you return w/your family and sleep under this same roof after mr. electrician departed.Long and short of it is,want differant,then open up the wallet again.May not be pretty in the garage ceiling.But if you didn't think it was safe,you and family still be in the motel wouldn't you..You got a up-hill fight, good luck..
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Junctioning Home runs
Some here are missing the point.If your car was wrecked and they replace a fender and the paint does not match,it is safe to drive and gets you back on the road.However the car has lost value.If his ceiling now shows boxes it has a lower value.Even if everything was rewired without splices added and looks good as before, that house has lost value because it must be disclosed if you sell.Many home owners sue for the devaluation money.I have done many fire jobs and personally i would never want that house back.Too much damage is just painted over.It is never good as new.
Some here are missing the point.If your car was wrecked and they replace a fender and the paint does not match,it is safe to drive and gets you back on the road.However the car has lost value.If his ceiling now shows boxes it has a lower value.Even if everything was rewired without splices added and looks good as before, that house has lost value because it must be disclosed if you sell.Many home owners sue for the devaluation money.I have done many fire jobs and personally i would never want that house back.Too much damage is just painted over.It is never good as new.
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Junctioning Home runs
in service work we all see bad splices.So just who made them ? and what makes you think they wont do the same in an attic ?
in service work we all see bad splices.So just who made them ? and what makes you think they wont do the same in an attic ?
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