keep getting undercut

[kwired]

So you agree with me its detrimental to work like that?

I understand walmart doesnt keep all profit low, if fact they are very profitable as a whole. Yes many schemes, the point I was making is walmart is corrupt and doesn't play by the rules. Unlike the EC you speak of, he plays by the rules, loses money anyway, and that drags us all down. This is not blaming the individual, he needs to eat now, do what you gotta do. Its the concept that this model EC is following I find offensive, not his need to get by. There is a better way, you know?

Does Wal Mart not play by the rules, or are they big enough to have the rules changed to be in their favor?

I can just about guarantee that Wal Mart has more eyes watching them for any wrong moves than some little known contractor does.

 

[GoldDigger]

Does Wal Mart not play by the rules, or are they big enough to have the rules changed to be in their favor?

I can just about guarantee that Wal Mart has more eyes watching them for any wrong moves than some little known contractor does.

They have been accused in the US of using bribes or political pressure to get the zoning regulations changed in their favor. The documented cases have been in other countries where it did not make any difference how many eyes were watching, the system just worked that way. Those cases are more likely to have an effect on Walmart through US laws on foreign corruption than the local laws.

 

[kwired]

They have been accused in the US of using bribes or political pressure to get the zoning regulations changed in their favor. The documented cases have been in other countries where it did not make any difference how many eyes were watching, the system just worked that way. Those cases are more likely to have an effect on Walmart through US laws on foreign corruption than the local laws.

Wal Mart is the only company that has ever done this?? I think a lot of what goes on in Washington as well as in many State Legislatures and City government proceedings has a lot to do with interest from big businesses. Guess who ends up winning when they make it look like jobs and economic stability will result from them getting their way, whether it comes true or not?

Like it or not, that is just a reality that exists, if they see an opportunity to make money they will spend what it takes to make it happen.

 

[nhfire77]

Wal Mart is the only company that has ever done this?? I think a lot of what goes on in Washington as well as in many State Legislatures and City government proceedings has a lot to do with interest from big businesses. Guess who ends up winning when they make it look like jobs and economic stability will result from them getting their way, whether it comes true or not?

Like it or not, that is just a reality that exists, if they see an opportunity to make money they will spend what it takes to make it happen.

No one said they were the only, I said the were the most corrupt. I would imagine they would have 'more eyes' looking for shady practices. Please read the article from my Mexico curruption link. The chief legal officer for the entire, global, Walmart quit after everyone ignored it.

I do not like it, nor do I have to accept it as 'how things are'. Those business practices are hurting us all. Call me an idealist, but jusr shooting for better is advantageous. Every system is imperfect and I accept that. A little sunshine is a great first step

 

[petersonra]

I suspect there is much more to the story.

You just plain cannot do business in Mexico without bribing all kinds of people.

 

[nhfire77]

I suspect there is much more to the story.

You just plain cannot do business in Mexico without bribing all kinds of people.

Read the article, they got the internal Wally world memos/emails. She advocated for an investigation, so they let the guy (president of walmart's mexico business unit) suspected of bribing officials investigate himself. It's a good, albiet a single incident, anthropological read on international business. And yes bribes in mx is a daily occurance, but getting back on point, the volme in which money is lost by EC's isn't helping us as an industry.

 

[jim dungar]

Straying too far off topic. Rein it in.

 

[templdl]

Please, please don't misunderstand my experience with never being successful of ever getting a medium motor order from a specific pump manufacturer. For most of you guys it's your lively hood. Being beat up on price is devastating. While working for a large manufacturer constantly loosing bids wasn't going to break numbers my employer. It was my job to sort out our profitable customers through relationships and the value both myself and my company provided. Again, this is by no means is comparable to a small business loosing a significant part of their bid because their bids are undercut. Because of my large customer it was a matter of a better use of my time. I had the ability to classify some customers as high maintenance, that I couldn't afford to have them as customers. My time would be better spent on assuring that my good customers were taken care of.
I have one pump OEM that no matter what I did I never got a single order from them. If you are is the NEMA frame motor business you get are darned good idea of what the market prices are. After discussing this customer with the marketing manage we decided to be very aggressive with our prices by using price levels extremely below the market. Still no orders.
The reason that I'm bringing up this example was that I was of the brief that my pricing was being used to keep my competitor's pricing in line.By quoting list pricing to them my prices could not be used against my competitor. I wasn't going to get an order anyway.
Again, this by no means compares to what some of you guys are up against as I could more than survive without that customer. The only thing that you may need to be made aware of is that their may be a possibility that in some cases you may never be able to get an order from some customers. You may be being used to keep their preferred contractors prices in line.
I worked for a domestic major manufacturer and you become well aware that the are other major manufactures out there also. At any time anyone of us could blow the other competitors away. My concern with you guys is if you competitors are low balling prices where is the money coming from to prop up the losses when a contractor buys jobs? Someone has to be pumping money into these businesses that you haven't the financial means to do.
This is just a thought.

 

[templdl]

Please, please don't misunderstand my experience with never being successful of ever getting a medium motor order from a specific pump manufacturer. For most of you guys it's your lively hood. Being beat up on price is devastating. While working for a large ma manufacturer constantly loosing bids wasn't going to break mo or my employer. I was my job to sort out our profitable customers through relationships and the value both myself and my company provided. Again, this is by no means is comparable to a small business loosing a significant part of their bid because their bids are undercut. Because of my large customer it was a matter of a better use of my time. I had the ability to classify some customers as high maintenance, that I couldn't afford to have them as customers. My time would be better spent on assuring that my good customers were taken care of.
I have one pump OEM that no matter what I did I never got a single order from them. If you are is the NEMA frame motor business you get are darned good idea of what the market prices are. After discussing this customer with the marketing manage we decided to be very aggressive with our prices by using price levels extremely below the market. Still no orders.
The reason that I'm bringing up this example was that I was of the brief that my pricing was being used to keep my competitor's pricing in line.By quoting list pricing to them my prices could not be used against my competitor. I wasn't going to get an order anyway.
Again, this by no means compares to what some of you guys are up against as I could more than survive with the customer. The only thing that you may need to be made aware of is that their may be a possibility that in some cases you may never be able to get an order from some customers. You may be being used to keep their preferred contractors prices in line.
I worked for a domestic major manufacturer and you become well aware that the are other major manufactures out there also. At any time anyone of us could blow the other competitors away. My concern with you guys is if you competitors are low balling prices where is the money coming from to prop up the losses when a contractor buys jobs? Someone has to be pumping money into these businesses that you haven't the financial means to do.
This is just a thought.

 

[ramsy]

Someone has to be pumping money into these businesses that you haven't the financial means to do.

With some previous employers who filed joint tax returns, their shop floated on the wage-earning spouse, until she bailed out to watch the contractor preside over the smoking spiral decent to crash & burn.

With previous larger employers, their mismanaged shops floated on burned investors, and ambitious employees who purchased job-site materials out-of-pocket, until they were turned over for the next ambitious employee.

With previous organized shops it was much simpler, using a labor pool of temp employees, union shops can lock the doors, go away, and come back if & when they feel like it.

 

[petersonra]

With previous organized shops it was much simpler, using a labor pool of temp employees, union shops can lock the doors, go away, and come back if & when they feel like it.

most shops cannot just close the doors and come back later no matter whether they are union or organized or what.

most business owners cannot afford to have no income and there are still costs associated with a business that is not doing any business that still have to be paid like loans and leases.

in any case, there are very few businesses that could survive not being around for a year or two. if you are not out there grubbing for it, you lose track of the market you are trying to service and that can be fatal.

 

[stevenje]

Working for food is better than starving.

There are a whole bunch of businesses who have figured out how to do things cheaper or found new niches, or both. They are called survivors.

You can either join them or become one of the many failed businesses.

Well put petersonra. Until the economy gets some legs, this is the new normal. Adapt or die.

 

[goldstar]

Came across this yesterday on a remodel job. Probably the same guy who beat my price by 50%.

But hey, at least he grounded the RX cable to the screw on the BX connector :lol:

Ever see an extension cord female end on armored cable ???:?

This is what's out there and this is what we licensed EC's are up against. You can believe whatever you want about Wal-Mart or whether an EC is working for food. The fact of the matter is there is boot-leg work going on and we have to stop it.

 

[iwire]

The fact of the matter is there is boot-leg work going on and we have to stop it.

There always has been, there always will be and worrying about it is unproductive.

 

[goldstar]

There always has been, there always will be and worrying about it is unproductive.

You're right. I just get ticked off when I see work like this. I'm sure it probably took the same amount of time and effort to do the wrong job as it would have to do it right. I also don't believe this was done by a licensed EC but rather by the guy who remodeled the kitchen on the other side of the wall.

 

[kwired]

There always has been, there always will be and worrying about it is unproductive.

Very true.

Came across this yesterday on a remodel job. Probably the same guy who beat my price by 50%.

But hey, at least he grounded the RX cable to the screw on the BX connector :lol:

Ever see an extension cord female end on armored cable ???:?

This is what's out there and this is what we licensed EC's are up against. You can believe whatever you want about Wal-Mart or whether an EC is working for food. The fact of the matter is there is boot-leg work going on and we have to stop it.

Did this work have anything to do with things that have gone on since the economy went sour? It possibly has been there for some time now.

Yes I have seen old (and new) MC or Bx run into boxes intended for NM cables, and have seen Bx cable terminated in cord connectors before.

 

[growler]

Walmart has figured out something that works.

Walmart just got rid of one of their executives that said their sales figures were a total disaster.

Walmart figured out a way to put lots of Americans out of work but the real solution ( America's economy) is to figure out a way to put lots of Americans back to work.

As electrical contractors we make money when those around us make and spend money. It doesn't do any good for a Chinese company to be making money unless we are working on an international scale.

Most of our business is local and until the local economy impoves it's going to be dog eat dog. All this global crap is working out about as well as the European Union.

I say forget about Walmart and try to support the local economy as much as possible.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I say forget about Walmart and try to support the local economy as much as possible.

i buy one thing at walmart. shell rotella T6 diesel oil, 12 gallons at a time.
enough for three oil changes. it's about $9 a gallon cheaper than
anywhere else around here, i have no idea why. so, for $100, i'll go
to walmart.

walmart, for me anyway, is not a shopping destination.

as far as most of our business prospects, electricians aren't global marketplace
type folks. we put stuff in, or fix stuff locally. there's been some threads on here
recently, about places to get stuff cheaply on the web.

we all like a good deal, but when i need something *right now* for a customer,
my wholesale house will find it for me, and "live chat" with someone who is
in kiev or bangalore isn't gonna do it.

and so i support people i can deal with eye to eye. if you don't support them,
then they close their doors, and we either get to buy stuff from walters
wholesale, or home dipsnit......

i needed some 4" gutter flanges for nema 1 gutter. just four of them, thanks.
walters, with 30 branches, didn't have any in stock, and wouldn't order them.

my little wholesale house had them the next day. they had 6" and 12" flanges,
but 4" had escaped their notice.

 

[kwired]

i buy one thing at walmart. shell rotella T6 diesel oil, 12 gallons at a time.
enough for three oil changes. it's about $9 a gallon cheaper than
anywhere else around here, i have no idea why. so, for $100, i'll go
to walmart.

walmart, for me anyway, is not a shopping destination.

as far as most of our business prospects, electricians aren't global marketplace
type folks. we put stuff in, or fix stuff locally. there's been some threads on here
recently, about places to get stuff cheaply on the web.

we all like a good deal, but when i need something *right now* for a customer,
my wholesale house will find it for me, and "live chat" with someone who is
in kiev or bangalore isn't gonna do it.

and so i support people i can deal with eye to eye. if you don't support them,
then they close their doors, and we either get to buy stuff from walters
wholesale, or home dipsnit......

i needed some 4" gutter flanges for nema 1 gutter. just four of them, thanks.
walters, with 30 branches, didn't have any in stock, and wouldn't order them.

my little wholesale house had them the next day. they had 6" and 12" flanges,
but 4" had escaped their notice.

The oil is cheaper because they are purchasing in mass quantity and getting a better price. They may not be taking the markup on that particular item either that they may have on other items. This is more of a "staple" to lure you in at the good price and hope you purchase a few other things while you are there. They are not the only place doing this, just one that is noticed more.

As far as supporting locals, if you don't support them, don't expect them to support you either.

Most of my suppliers have been bought by bigger companies in recent years, and IMO their service has gone downhill. There have been some good changes but the lost services still more than offsets what good has come. Lots of items seem to no longer be in stock whenever you need them that generally was in stock a few years ago. Why do they call themselves a supplier if they have nothing to supply most of the time? I wanted 6 wraparound fixtures about 10 days ago, did not have a single one in stock and wasn't going to have them for about 10 days. I could have gone to big box or ordered online and had them in a couple days at most.
I can understand this happening once in a while, but seems to happen all the time anymore.

 

[hbiss]

Make no mistake about it- there is money out there, lots of money. For every customer who may be genuinely up against the wall financially there are at least two or more who are just using the desparation of the American worker and small business to save them money that they can well afford to pay. They know that if they can't get the price they want to pay from one contractor there are others who are more desparate. It's a viscious cycle- you can't compete with other contractors without cutting your prices to below their level. It's a race to the bottom. The way to short circuit this mentality is for all contractors to get together and charge what they realistically need to in order to make a decent profit. Consider that in effect customers have gotten together to drive prices down.


-Hal