Kitchen Ansul System R-102

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jsun9

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What is the reason that the equipment under the hood is on normal power but the Ansul control panel is fed from standby power?
 
I've never seen a kitchen that had standby power. Is this a healthcare or nursing home facility?

The reason it's on standby power is that even though the normal power to the underhood lighting, receptacles and appliances is down (which the Ansul system would shut down anyway when triggered), in the event of a fire during the outage somebody wants the Ansul system to be operational as well as the exhaust fan.

-Hal
 
It is a casino job and has a couples of restaurants/kitchens around it which need the Ansul R-102 for each.

I had the same thought that fire happens during the power outrage, but isn't so weird or is that rarely could be happened？


hbiss said:
I've never seen a kitchen that had standby power. Is this a healthcare or nursing home facility?

The reason it's on standby power is that even though the normal power to the underhood lighting, receptacles and appliances is down (which the Ansul system would shut down anyway when triggered), in the event of a fire during the outage somebody wants the Ansul system to be operational as well as the exhaust fan.

-Hal
Click to expand...
 
hbiss said:
If you have stand-by power why not? It is a fire system, no?

-Hal
Click to expand...

There may be no harm, but there is also no gain, unless the Ansul system is being triggered by a suppression panel, which would be a very rare install. All suppression systems are listed for exhaust on or off so there is no real gain in that quarter. This is a cost saving opportunity for the client which might give jsun9 an edge if this is still in the bid stage, to offer an alternate deduct for that scope.

jsun9:

Ansul systems are typically all mechanical. There is a steel cable under tension with fusible links in it that melt in a fire condition and release the cable tension, activating the system. There is also at least one mechanical pull station which also does not require electricity. Usually the gas valve is closed mechanically as well, but even those systems that do us solenoid electric gas valves, the valves are powered open and will close on power failure. They will not reopen when power is restored without manually activating the relay reset. I suspect an engineer with no familiarity with these systems has muddled the drawings and/or specifications.
 
Gadfly explained it better than I did. Apparently the engineer is considering these fire systems or part of the fire system. The Ansul system itself is mechanical and will function with or without power. Usually the exhaust fan is turned on or continues to operate when the Ansul system is triggered, but as noted, it isn't critical for the fire suppression.

-Hal
 
gadfly56 said:
..even those systems that do use solenoid electric gas valves, the valves are powered open and will close on power failure. They will not reopen when power is restored without manually activating the relay reset..
Click to expand...

Ahhh so, to avoid blowing $5000.- in Halon discharge, cleanup, & recharge, perhaps don't remove strange lock on red circuit breaker, nor open that fuse box disconnect, until we confirm Ansul system is mechanical with no solenoids?
 
ramsy said:
Ahhh so, to avoid blowing $5000.- in Halon discharge, cleanup, & recharge, perhaps don't remove strange lock on red circuit breaker, nor open that fuse box disconnect, until we confirm Ansul system is mechanical with no solenoids?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry if I caused some confusion. The gas valve I was talking about is the fuel gas supply to the cooking appliances, not a gas valve for a clean agent suppression system cylinder. My bad.
 
hbiss said:
Gadfly explained it better than I did. Apparently the engineer is considering these fire systems or part of the fire system. The Ansul system itself is mechanical and will function with or without power. Usually the exhaust fan is turned on or continues to operate when the Ansul system is triggered, but as noted, it isn't critical for the fire suppression.

-Hal
Click to expand...

I don't know where you learned fire suppression technique.
Anytime fire breaks out, one of the primary goal is to keep it from spreading. Of course you can try to put it out but sometimes it is not possible.

There are three elements needed to support combustion: Oxygen, Heat and Fuel.

By removing one of the three elements combustion stops. (Pfft. kaput.)
The idea of turning the fan on when there is fire is ridiculous. You'd be creating a blow torch if you did that..

In some air handlers that are duct mounted, they are interlocked with fire alarm systems to make sure they become disabled when there is fire to keep smoke from suffocating the occupants or any fan for that matter.

The design engineer may have included some redundant feature and there's really nothing wrong with it.

The final say lies on the fire marshal and not the electrician.

During my working days, I've attended seminars and workshops that pertain to fire suppression as part of my responsibility as staff engineer of a consulting firm.
 
ActionDave said:
I don't know where you learned anything about Ansul systems but you need to go back and study again.
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Re read my post. I'm referring to enabling the fan in the event of fire.

You are the one who needs to put your head in gear before your mouth.

Got that? Or do I have to hold your hand.
 
myspark said:
Re read my post. I'm referring to enabling the fan in the event of fire.

You are the one who needs to put your head in gear before your mouth.

Got that? Or do I have to hold your hand.
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You need a little humility in your life, because you sure don't know much about kitchen suppression systems and their requirements. In many jurisdictions, it's required that the exhaust fan turn on or remain on in a hood fire. Functionally, the reason is to pull the fire back from the face of the hood, possibly creating a safer path for occupants to exit as well as limit any smoke condition in the kitchen. Most kitchens I have seen have prep tables directly in front of the cook line and your only path of egress may force you past the fire.

In my nine years with a contractor I designed and supervised the installation of over 100 kitchen suppression systems, not merely attended the occasional brush-up seminar.
 
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gadfly56 said:
You need a little humility in your life, because you sure don't know much about kitchen suppression systems and their requirements. In many jurisdictions, it's required that the exhaust fan turn on or remain on in a hood fire. Functionally, the reason is to pull the fire back from the face of the hood, possibly creating a safer path for occupants to exit as well as limit any smoke condition in the kitchen. Most kitchens I have seen have prep tables directly in front of the cook line and your only path of egress may force you past the fire.

In my nine years with a contractor I designed and supervised the installation of over 100 kitchen suppression systems, not merely attended the occasional brush-up seminar.
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Humility is a two-way street that applies depending on how people treat another person. Hostility towards another person often invites another hostile action from another.

My post was in response to the post that essentially brought me here.

There is another way to avoid this and even prevent from escalating into nasty exchange that is: flee or cave in.

This is called fight or flight syndrome.

This is a natural reaction when faced with something that could cause harm whether physically or emotionally.

If someone breaks into your peaceful home. . . do you respond with meekness that identifies with humility? Of course not.
Your fuzzy logic is flying in the face of lacking understanding of basic in-depth human behavior.

OP's confrontational approach albeit abhorrent attitude is what brought this whole mess.


So much for psychology.


To answer your generalized treatment of exhaust fans in the event of fire, the link below will help you refine your knowledge:


http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=119122
 
When the Ansul system is triggered the hood EXHAUST fan remains on or is turned on. The MAKEUP AIR fan is shut down along with the under-hood receptacles, lighting, electric appliances and gas valve.

Ahhh so, to avoid blowing $5000.- in Halon discharge, cleanup, & recharge, perhaps don't remove strange lock on red circuit breaker, nor open that fuse box disconnect, until we confirm Ansul system is mechanical with no solenoids?
Click to expand...

An Ansul system IS NOT a Halon system! Two completely different animals for two absolutely different applications. There really isn't even that much similarity between them.

-Hal
 
Kitchen Ansul System R-102

myspark said:
The idea of turning the fan on when there is fire is ridiculous. You'd be creating a blow torch if you did that..
Click to expand...

I’m no expert on Fire suppression, but 90% of my work is restaurants & kitchens, and I can assure you that you will never find a hood suppression system that doesn’t turn the exhaust fan on. Make-up air and HVAC units will be shut down, yes, but exhaust will always be turned on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My observation is the exhaust hood and ducting will get grease build up and that if you would have a fire make it's way into the duct, you are probably better off having the fan running - will sort of keep the fire contained to the duct, as it would act more like the burner on a large boiler or other industrial burner with air flowing over the burner. Stop the fan and it heats up the duct and anything around it.
 
ramsy said:
Can shutting off breakers discharge the Halon system?
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No. A Halon suppression panel will have battery backup, preventing any hiccups to the cylinder solenoids. In any event, the solenoids will be energize to open, and they will be powered from the suppression panel, not separately from another power source.

If the suppression panel were to go onto battery, and the battery were to rundown, most panels will shut themselves down before they reach the point of unpredictable operation. I have heard of panels discharging if they come back up from this shut down after a prolonged power outage, but I don't believe it's common.
 
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