Kitchen Backplash

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msext

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I have a customer asking if it is possible to have a continous backsplash with no outlets and place the outlets up under the cabinets. I have heard of some people using undercabinet lightswith outlets, of course GFCI protected.

My interpitation would be no they have to be on the wall above the counter and not above in the lights. They are thinking of a stainless steel counter top.

Thanks
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

I have done this several times with plugmold. You can even get it in brushed aluminum which would match nicely with the stainless counter top. Use a GFI breaker or I usually put a faceless GFI in a discreet location such as an appliance garage.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

without doing the page turning, i think the interp has been that the outlet needs to be within 18" of surface of counter, based on cabinets over islands as alternate location for receptacles, as opposed to on sides.

paul
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

without doing the page turning, i think the interp has been that the outlet needs to be within 18" of surface of counter, based on cabinets over islands as alternate location for receptacles, as opposed to on sides.
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Take a look at 210.52(C)(5), receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 20" above the countertop. Also the exception to 210.52(C)(5) provides another option. The receptacles can be mounted up to 6" below the countertop also.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Originally posted by spider2:
Use a GFI breaker or I usually put a faceless GFI in a discreet location such as an appliance garage.
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I'd say that a faceless GFI in an appliance garage feeding the required countertop receptacle outlets would be a technical violation of 210.52(B)(2). And away we go again. :D

[ October 06, 2005, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Originally posted by georgestolz:
I'd say that a faceless GFI in an appliance garage feeding the required countertop receptacle outlets would be a technical violation of 210.52(B)(2). And away we go again. :)
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Re: Kitchen Backplash

George
Are you practicing writing suspense movies? :D
Let us know what would be wrong with the faceless in an appliance garage.

The permitted placement of a receptacle below the countertop as the required receptacle is no more than 12", and that placement is only good if there are no places above the countertop, such as a backsplash or cabinet within 20".
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Because there is a receptacle outlet serving an area other than the areas described in 210.52(B)(1) that's on an SA circuit. This section doesn't care that the receptacle outlet in the appliance garage is the home of a device with no receptacles on it. :D

If the GFCI is not required to be readily accessible to the receptacles then a GFCI face plate could be installed in one of the bedroom closets to protect the countertop receptacles.
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And this would technically be illegal too. :D
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

George

Better make it a suit of armour ;)

He mentioned a "faceless" GFCI, which is not an outlet. The NEC does not say where the GFCI protection has to be located, just that the receptacle has to have GFCI protection.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Definition of an outlet according to Article 100-Definitions of the NEC 2005 code book.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

I'm not sure a faceless GFCI would qualify as an outlet. Neither would a switch.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

George: I think you are misinterpreting 210.52(C)(5).

Pierre, Scott, Ryan, Bruce, and others: It would not even matter if the GFCI device inside the appliance garage is a GFCI receptacle.

Nothing prohibits installation of a receptacle within an appliance garage; nothing prohibits powering it from an SA circuit. After all, that receptacle will serve one or more appliances that are on the countertop. The only rule is that you don't get to take credit for that receptacle, when you are figuring out how many receptacles you need to place along the countertop.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Charlie
The only problem I see with the GFCI receptacle in the appliance garage that is supplied from the SAB is that it would be considered a "other" outlet and would not be permitted.

I am not too sure why Ryan thinks a faceless GFCI is an outlet, maybe he knows something we don't. I take the same stance as aline as far as what an outlet is defined as.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

I supplied current to the faceplate and I am taking current from the faceplate to supply receptacles.

Outlet. A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.
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Why would this not be an outlet?
:confused:
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

I guess the key point is this: If you lay out all the required countertop receptacle outlets, and then you add one receptacle inside an appliance garage, does that one have to go on an SA circuit, or is it forbidden to go on an SA circuit? If we are going to disagree within this thread, it will be on this point. Here is Pierre's view, or so I surmise:
Originally posted by pierre: The only problem I see with the GFCI receptacle in the appliance garage that is supplied from the SAB is that it would be considered a "other" outlet and would not be permitted.
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I see it the other way. It's not an "other." It's "one of us." There is no rule against putting receptacles every 6 inches along the wall behind/above the counter top, and putting them all on the SA circuits. Each and every one of them serves the countertop. So would the receptacle within the garage. You may be planning on leaving a blender in the appliance garage, and plugging the blender and no other appliance into that receptacle. But the blender is an appliance and it stands on the counter top. Therefore, it must be served by an SA circuit.
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Originally posted by jwelectric: I supplied current to the faceplate and I am taking current from the faceplate to supply receptacles. . . . Why would this not be an outlet?
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We've done this dance before. We're not going to agree this time either. But my answer, in case anyone does not choose to look up the previous discussions, is that this "faceplate thingy" is passing current along to points "on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." There is no utilization equipment taking current from the "faceplate thingy" itself. Thus, the "faceplate thingy" itself is not an "outlet," nor does it reside within an "outlet."
 
Re: Kitchen Backplash

Originally posted by charlie b:
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But my answer, in case anyone does not choose to look up the previous discussions, is that this "faceplate thingy" is passing current along to points "on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment." There is no utilization equipment taking current from the "faceplate thingy" itself. Thus, the "faceplate thingy" itself is not an "outlet," nor does it reside within an "outlet." [/QUOTE]

I agree here this device is the same as a switch; it's a control not an outlet
 
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