Kitchen countertops opening into dining room

[enigma-2]

210.52(C)(1) is reads "Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider."

I have interpreted this as to only apply to countertop spaces in which there was a wall (space) located behind the counter.

Problem : Assume a kitchen countertop with walls behind except for a space approx. 8' wide where the countertop extends through the wall into the dinning room. At this point, there is no wall space to mount a receptacle. (The walls stop at the opening where the countertop extends into the next room.)

My argument is that 210.52(C)(1) does NOT apply to this area as there is "wall" countertop space. (It only applies to the countertop where there is wall behind.)

The inspector reads this to still require receptacles spaced 2' and 4' on-center (even through there is no wall.)

There is no definition as to what a "wall countertop space" is. therefore open to interpretation.

How do the rest of you feel about this?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

210.52(C)(1) is reads "Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider."

I have interpreted this as to only apply to countertop spaces in which there was a wall (space) located behind the counter.

Then how do you explain 210.52(C)(2) and (C)(3). IMO you need a receptacle

 

[enigma-2]

Then how do you explain 210.52(C)(2) and (C)(3). IMO you need a receptacle

I would state that (C)2 & (C)3 were added to address specific locations, that is, no walls at all. (C)1 addresses counters located against walls; and stands apart from 2 & 3.

I should have added that we had written to request an "informal" interpretation from the NEC subcommittee, about a similar condition that a particular state electrical board had ruled on.

In that scenario, in one section of wall counter space, cabinets ran down the wall onto the top of the countertop and left no open space for receptacles to be installed.

They (the state electrical board ) ruled that the "required receptacles" must be located inside the cabinets(!)

To finish the project, the recepts were added, but we also perused the issue with the NEC. The NEC response that the intent of this section ONLY applied to those areas over countertops where there IS "wall" space behind them; where recepts "could" be installed. As the cabinets prevented any open wallspace in that particular area, this section did not apply, and no receptacles were required to be installed in that area.

We took this NEC opinion back to the state and they yielded (grudgingly.)

Perhaps we should pursue adding a formal definition to the next cycle of NEC for "Wall Countertop Space"?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Perhaps I need a visual of what you have there.

 

[kwired]

210.52(C)(1) is reads "Wall Countertop Spaces. A receptacle outlet shall be
installed at each wall countertop space that is 300 mm (12 in.) or wider."

I have interpreted this as to only apply to countertop spaces in which there was a wall (space) located behind the counter.

Problem : Assume a kitchen countertop with walls behind except for a space approx. 8' wide where the countertop extends through the wall into the dinning room. At this point, there is no wall space to mount a receptacle. (The walls stop at the opening where the countertop extends into the next room.)

My argument is that 210.52(C)(1) does NOT apply to this area as there is "wall" countertop space. (It only applies to the countertop where there is wall behind.)

The inspector reads this to still require receptacles spaced 2' and 4' on-center (even through there is no wall.)

There is no definition as to what a "wall countertop space" is. therefore open to interpretation.

How do the rest of you feel about this?

sounds to me like you are describing a peninsula - which does not have the same requirements as "wall" countertop spaces.

 

[renosteinke]

My house came with a homeowner-added counter that pierced the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. I intend to keep this idea in my 'gut' remodel.

As i read the code, you need the receptacles only to serve the kitchen side of the counter. My solution is to split the counter lengthwise, with the dining room side about 4" higher than the kitchen side, and to place the receptacles in that space. Hello, plugmold!

Other solutions might be to place the receptacles along the face of the counter, or to use pop-up receptacles. One might even be able to use drop cords.

 

[mjf]

sounds to me like you are describing a peninsula - which does not have the same requirements as "wall" countertop spaces.

sounds to me like the part of the counter extending into the dining room may qualify as a peninsula if it sticks out 12" or greater.

 

[kwired]

One might even be able to use drop cords.

As in "pendant's"

I'm sure the interior designers really like that option a lot, especially if you use those big two sided yellow pendant boxes.

 

[dwellselectric]

I ran into the same issue a few years back and the inspector made me put those push up outlets into the granite. The cost for the outlets was about $250 each and needless to say the homeowner wasn't to pleased with the added cost.. I did agree with him though I did need to add the outlets. You never know when someone might put something there and just because you don't have wall space doesn't mean they don't need power.

 

[kwired]

I ran into the same issue a few years back and the inspector made me put those push up outlets into the granite. The cost for the outlets was about $250 each and needless to say the homeowner wasn't to pleased with the added cost.. I did agree with him though I did need to add the outlets. You never know when someone might put something there and just because you don't have wall space doesn't mean they don't need power.

How far back? Requirements in 2011 NEC are not the same if you have a island or peninsula as they are if you have countertop with a wall behind it. Nothing prohibits putting in those receptacles, but only one receptacle is required for islands and peninsulas - and an inspector that makes you put in more then that either has a local amendment to enforce or is pushing his own code or own interpretation anyway.

 

[mwm1752]

Problem : Assume a kitchen countertop with walls behind except for a space approx. 8' wide where the countertop extends through the wall into the dinning room. At this point, there is no wall space to mount a receptacle. (The walls stop at the opening where the countertop extends into the next room.) Sounds like you have a pass thru counter and the counter is continuous inside the kitchen -- I am guessing the counter top in the opening is approx 24"+ 8" deep and at least 12" wide. Technically the 4' spacing applies but I would probably assess the situation prior to ruling as it is unique. In any case the AHJ will prevail.
My argument is that 210.52(C)(1) does NOT apply to this area as there is "wall" countertop space. (It only applies to the countertop where there is wall behind.) The wall behind is still a wall partion there is no definition on how high a wall must be. If a cabinet was not in place it would still be considered a wall in the kitchen.

 

[kwired]

Problem : Assume a kitchen countertop with walls behind except for a space approx. 8' wide where the countertop extends through the wall into the dinning room. At this point, there is no wall space to mount a receptacle. (The walls stop at the opening where the countertop extends into the next room.) Sounds like you have a pass thru counter and the counter is continuous inside the kitchen -- I am guessing the counter top in the opening is approx 24"+ 8" deep and at least 12" wide. Technically the 4' spacing applies but I would probably assess the situation prior to ruling as it is unique. In any case the AHJ will prevail.
My argument is that 210.52(C)(1) does NOT apply to this area as there is "wall" countertop space. (It only applies to the countertop where there is wall behind.) The wall behind is still a wall partion there is no definition on how high a wall must be. If a cabinet was not in place it would still be considered a wall in the kitchen.

You can't have a wall and not have a wall at same time:?

Maybe I don't quite follow what you are describing either though. If you have a wall above this "pass thru" counter and the upper end of the opening is at 20" or less above the countertop, you can still put one on the wall or cabinet above this space, and meet the requirements anyway.

 

[iwire]

You can't have a wall and not have a wall at same time:?

Sure you can, a knee wall is built, the cabinets installed backed up against it and the countertop extends off the cabinets and over the wall.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Sure you can, a knee wall is built, the cabinets installed backed up against it and the countertop extends off the cabinets and over the wall.

Are you saying that does not need a receptacle??? I might agree if the overhand was enough for seating.

 

[mwm1752]

Sure you can, a knee wall is built, the cabinets installed backed up against it and the countertop extends off the cabinets and over the wall.

That sounds like a pennisula -- the wall space is still requiring general recepts @ 6' / 12' unless they have cabinets on both sides

 

[iwire]

That sounds like a pennisula -- the wall space is still requiring general recepts @ 6' / 12' unless they have cabinets on both sides

It could be, or it could be just a pass through.

the wall space is still requiring general recepts @ 6' / 12' unless they have cabinets on both sides

Yes.

 

[iwire]

Are you saying that does not need a receptacle??? I might agree if the overhand was enough for seating.

I have no idea why at least two people felt that was what I was saying. :?:blink:

 

[kwired]

Sure you can, a knee wall is built, the cabinets installed backed up against it and the countertop extends off the cabinets and over the wall.

That sounds like a pennisula -- the wall space is still requiring general recepts @ 6' / 12' unless they have cabinets on both sides

I second that.


In relation to the countertop which is what kicks in the 2 foot - 4 foot rules instead of the usual 6 foot - 12 foot rules, there is no wall to be concerned about. This "knee wall" is likely a support for the counter top but provides no "wall space" as is being referred to in 210.52(C)(1).

If said wall extended above the countertop we would not have a peninsula or an island that is allowed to be done differently in 210.52(C)-(2) or (3)

 

[mwm1752]

It could be, or it could be just a pass through.

Yes.

The requirement for the countertop recept spacing is still in effect but a reasonable person could require recepts on each side to give proper count for the length of counter. Certainly not a life safety issue.

 

[kwired]

The requirement for the countertop recept spacing is still in effect but a reasonable person could require recepts on each side to give proper count for the length of counter. Certainly not a life safety issue.

there was no image when I made the earlier reply, but the image doesn't change my mind about this very much either. That "pass thru" IMO does not require any receptacles, though I would still place one on the wall on each side myself in most all cases, and if it were less than 4 feet between the receptacles - you are covered no matter how you interpret it.