Kitchen Floor Receptacles

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Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

hi guys; I've got to take the ex English major position on this one. If the intent of the nec was to allow other 15 amp circuits in kitchens besides the ones mentioned, it would have worded the 99 revised wording fdifferently. The handbook to the 99 nec specifically states that the wording was meant to tighten and clarify past editions. If there was ANY variation allowed it would have been mentioned there in that explanation (when the wording was changed). The big words that dominate is that "the outlets shall be served..." and this cannot mean some shall be served.

I respect Mike Holt and his work, but this only proves he is human. References to electrical authorities can lead to confusion, as it is an assertion about meaning that may or may not be what the nec itself has said, what the words actually say, or even what seems how it must be interpreted to make sense. Also references to authority muddy the water with feelings about WHO is saying what, when it is more important to see what is specifically said.

there might some difference between the 2002 on this issue, but I can only see this on one way, only specifically exempted items nay be other than specified, lighting, clock outlets, gas stove electronics, and nothing else.

logic and language, common sense about enforceability, unanimity among inspectors, the nec itself, all call outthe strict meaning of this rule.

sorry to disagree with you guys, but this one seems too straight up,

paul
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Here is what changed my mind.

210.52(B)(1) is the main section that tells us the SA branch circuits must be on 20 amp circuits.

210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
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IMO it is very important that they did not chose to say all outlets in those areas, only all the receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C).

To me this means once the required outlets are served by the 20 amp circuits any additional ones, like the floor outlets that are not part of the receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A) and (C) can be 15 amp GP circuits.

Why do we have an exception for the refrigerator outlets?

Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
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Due to the last 6 words of 210.52(B)(1).

and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment
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All that aside I doubt I will run 15 amp circuits to these areas.


Bob

I can not explain why we needed the exception for the switched outlet. :D
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

Now Bob look at how they changed the wording in the "2005" 210.52(B)(1):

(b) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all counter top outlets covered by 210.52(C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. [ROP 2-206]

So why now the formal words that say these 20 amp circuits shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets, and counter top outlets.
They left out receptacle for counter tops? I wonder if this was intentional?
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

In the end it`s up to the inspector.As I said 20 amp in theses areas unless for lighting.If you have to have a 20 amp recp in a nook/dining area.Then all receptacles over the required
min. need to be on either the 20 amp dining/nook circuit or the line or load side of a gfci circuit.Why a 15 amp for ref. is allowed is beyond me look at what theyt have now refidges that tell you whats in them to me like a computer station dedicated 20 amp circuit.JMHO
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

it is clear that their intent is to limit the kitchen outlets to 20 amps for all the actual receptacles not exempted, barring their oversight.

bob: i think you are reading more into the sentence than is there. the argument is circular to another section, and where the nec's inability to hire smart, EXPERIENCED editors for each section is obvious, it is also obvious their intent is to limit the receptacles to 20 amps. For them to be clear, they do not need the whole interp in one sentence. Since they state the specific exemptions in toto, it is definitely implied that those are the only exceptions. (unless stated elsewhere explicitly). Without overcomimg that logical/language barrier the argument for other meanings cannot stand. No other statements or exceptions imply your argument, only the argument against you.

Why the argument?? what does it serve?? Trying to get the small fixed appliances on 15 amp breakers?? Trying to spin some inspector's brain?? too late

later, paul
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

The very fact that 2005 is changing the wording is proof enough that it was worded wrong.Look at arc faults and gfci they say ALL not REQUIRED.
I do think we all really know they need to be on 20 amp SA for logical reasons.
 
Re: Kitchen Floor Receptacles

If they wanted all the outlets to be on 20 amp circuits why all the extra language in 210.52(B)(1)

2005 NEC (Maybe :D )
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all counter top outlets covered by 210.52(C) and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. [ROP 2-206]
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This could be simplified to just this.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. The two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all receptacle outlets in the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit.
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IMO the extra language is included to identify which outlets are required to be 20s.

JMO, from a guy that has not wired a dwelling unit kitchen in a long time. :D

Bob
 
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