Kitchen GFCI receptacles

[Jim W in Tampa]

I'm electrical engineer in Costa Rica and I designed a building with 50 condos. My interpretation of Article 210.8 of the NEC is that all the receptacles of the Small appliances branch circuit in Kitchen Countertop must be GFCI. The contractor has a U.S. assistant electrician and he said that only the first receptacle of branch circuit must be GFCI because others will be protected downstream and that is the way as you do always in the United States. I do not agree with that point of view because if GFCI receptacle fails the other downstream receptacles will remain unprotected. I know that in the past 5 years there have been many failures in GFCI receptacles outlets. Contractor and electrician want to reduce receptacles costs.Please I would like to know the opinion of you.Please.

In commercial work we generally dont want slaves off of a gfci, however that is because of the troubles involved if they trip.Given a choice i would prefer having a gfci receptacle at all locations. The wiring is the same but the cost is major factor.In residential its not really needed as the outlets should be easy to get to.Your idea is good but your adding cost to the unit.

 

[Heresmil]

What would be the point if the electronics fail and did not stop power at the other receptacles?

The downstream receptacles will not have GFCI protection.For this reason I think that at least we must have another GFCI receptacle in the branch circuit, or instead GFCI receptacles we must have a GFCI circuit breaker

 

[Heresmil]

Here's another situation where IF becomes one of the largest words in the English language. If you're following the guidelines of the NEC then, yes, all countertop receptacles have to be GFCI protected. So then,

1) If you install a GFCI circuit breaker all countertop receptacles will be protected. However, IF that breaker fails to trip then all receptacles WILL NOT be protected.

2) If you install one GFCI receptacle ahead of standard duplex receptacles then all receptacled downstream WILL be protected. However, IF that GFCI receptacle fails to trip then all receptacles downstream WILL NOT be protected.

3) IF you install individual GFCI receptacles at each point along the countertop area then all receptacles WILL be GFCI protected. However, IF any of them fail to trip due to a GF condition then that particular receptacle WOULD NOT be protected but the others may or may not be protected depending on how reliable you believe they might be.

My point to all this is that IF you're buying GFCI receptacles from a reputable company these devices are manufactured and tested under the highest standards. However, IF if you purchased these devices and they were manufactured in the dungeons of some 3rd World country and dumped on the Internet market, then yes I would be wary of their operation.

IMHO, you may choose to design the circuits as you wish but you're only adding cost to the job and not better protection.

Thank very much. I am agree with you.If I install a GFCI breaker instead all GFCI receptacles and the breaker fails, the client will have every right to blame the beraker manufacturer and I will support him. If I install all the GFCI receptacle and one of them fails and an accident occurs, the client can also blame the receptacle manufacturer and also I will support him. If I install only a GFCI outlet, and this fails, and client has an accident in one of the ou downstream receptacles, the customer could blame me and the manufacturer will not support me.

When I was young, my first job was as head of Quality at the American factory GTE Sylvania, in the starter?s plant for fluorescent lamps. Whenever, we had a small percentage of breaking at the output from the production machines. The quality testing is always done in samples of the product produced and not in all manufactured units .Sylvania is a manufacturer company with UL and ISO standards? This not means that some defective product cannot reach the shops.

 

[Heresmil]

In commercial work we generally dont want slaves off of a gfci, however that is because of the troubles involved if they trip.Given a choice i would prefer having a gfci receptacle at all locations. The wiring is the same but the cost is major factor.In residential its not really needed as the outlets should be easy to get to.Your idea is good but your adding cost to the unit.

Thank you very much.

 

[Heresmil]

I don't agree that the power is lost when the GFCI fails. I see nothing in the link that actually says that. It says that after a test it will not reset if the electronics have failed. It does not say that the circuit opens when the electronics fail.

. I am attaching an interesting file.

 

[gar]

080921-1129 EST

Dennis:

Comments on your post #15. These relate in particular to the Leviton 7899-W.

The GFCI electronics could fail in such a way that it would not trip, but it would have to be in the reset state when this occurred. Note: from another thread that there is a backdoor way to reset this breaker without power, but not possible from the front the face.

For example: If the SCR failed open, then the device won't trip.
If the integrated circuit fails so that there is no drive current to the SCR gate, then no trip.
There are other component failures that can produce the same result.

If the Leviton is tripped, then most electronic failures will prevent the unit from being reset. This is because part of the reset operation applies a 15k ohm test resistor to produce an 8 MA unbalanced test signal and inturn operates the trip solenoid. This does a lot of circuit testing.

The test button on this GFCI does not perform this test, but rather mechanically trips the latch. The RESET button mechanically assists in resetting the latch in combination with the circuit test and operation of the trip solenoid.

If the mechanical contacts welded together in the GFCI, then it would never trip.

We have information on one particular failure of a Leviton GFCI. In this case a diode shorted, the SCR shorted, and the trip solenoid burned up. I suspect when the failure occurred that the unit tripped. This would not be resettable.

.

 

[LarryFine]

If I install all the GFCI receptacle and one of them fails and an accident occurs, the client can also blame the receptacle manufacturer and also I will support him.

If I install only a GFCI outlet, and this fails, and client has an accident in one of the ou downstream receptacles, the customer could blame me and the manufacturer will not support me.

I disagree with the difference. The feed-through terminals are no different than the receptacle slots. Both are equally intended for use, and equally protected.

 

[goldstar]

If I install all the GFCI receptacle and one of them fails and an accident occurs, the client can also blame the receptacle manufacturer and also I will support him.

Suit yourself.

If I install only a GFCI outlet, and this fails, and client has an accident in one of the ou downstream receptacles, the customer could blame me and the manufacturer will not support me.

OK, IF that's what you believe. However, I don't see the difference in failure scenarios. If a GFCI receptacle fails to trip with a G-fault, it doesn't matter whether it's an independent unit or a std receptacle wired downstream off the LOAD SIDE of the GFCI receptacle.

The quality testing is always done in samples of the product produced and not in all manufactured units

No question about it. If these mfrs. had to test each individual unit the products would end up costing twice what they are selling for currently

This not means that some defective product cannot reach the shops.

I don't have statistics but I have to believe that the failure and defect rates are quite low. I also have to believe that quality manufacturers would not knowingly flood the market with defective units. If you truly believe that a mfr. would not stand behind their product if it was wired correctly with downstream receptacles then you can't possibly believe that they would stand behind their product if they were wired for independent use with no downstream receptacles. I don't mean for this to come across in an insulting way but your argument makes no logical sense unless you do not intend to wire the downstream receptacles off the load side of the GFCI.

 

[iaov]

Was doing a kitchen remodel a while back and saw a wierd problem with a GFIC. The HO is an industrial electrician and he offered to install the GFIC's after I had roped and boxed his island. When I turned on the power I felt safe assuming they had been installed correctly. Almost as an after thought I stuck my "sniffer" into the ungrounded slot and it lit up. Good> I then stuck it in the neutral slot and it lit up also!! I figured HO wired something wrong. (HE said some very insensitive things to me for questioning his installation!) When we took the GFIC out it was installed properly. I don't remember reading neutral to ground but I do remember seeing almost no voltage difference between the hot screw and the neutral screw on the device. The breaker did not trip. The only explanation I have is that I had a very high resistence short in this GFIC. I replaced it and the HO bet me ten bucks it would not make a difference. I enjoyed his ten dollars!:smile: Anyone else ever run into anything like this with a GFIC?

 

[quogueelectric]

As much as it pains me to post this in the recent test I ran on a gfci receptical the output was connected to the feed thru of the gfci and it worked almost perfectly. Testing that these work properly instead of guessing this was my finding. You can find pictures to back up all claims I have just made.

 

[Heresmil]

Suit yourself.OK, IF that's what you believe. However, I don't see the difference in failure scenarios. If a GFCI receptacle fails to trip with a G-fault, it doesn't matter whether it's an independent unit or a std receptacle wired downstream off the LOAD SIDE of the GFCI receptacle.No question about it. If these mfrs. had to test each individual unit the products would end up costing twice what they are selling for currently I don't have statistics but I have to believe that the failure and defect rates are quite low. I also have to believe that quality manufacturers would not knowingly flood the market with defective units. If you truly believe that a mfr. would not stand behind their product if it was wired correctly with downstream receptacles then you can't possibly believe that they would stand behind their product if they were wired for independent use with no downstream receptacles. I don't mean for this to come across in an insulting way but your argument makes no logical sense unless you do not intend to wire the downstream receptacles off the load side of the GFCI.

Mr Goldstar:

I am thinking to wire in the right way. I am attaching interesting papers I got by internet. Thank all you for your help.View attachment 2257

View attachment 2258

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Mr Goldstar:

I am thinking to wire in the right way. I am attaching interesting papers I got by internet. Thank all you for your help.View attachment 2257

View attachment 2258

The consumer safety paper is dated 2001. Here is an outdated statement from it.

In addition, the study found that receptacle GFCIs are often installed incorrectly ? by unintentionally reversing the wiring to the line and load terminals ? leaving the consumer unknowingly without shock protection at the GFCI outlet.

This is not a possibility with the newer GFCI receptacles. If the power is reversed from line to load the unit will not operate.

 

[alfiesauce]

GFCI's regardless of age fail and they do not always trip when they do.
This is why the instructions tell you to test them monthly
Not so long ago the way I tested kitchen circuits for proper GFCI protection would be to go to the last outlet on the load side of the GFCI and trip it with my plug tester. It it tripped great. However I have since had GFCI receptacles trip properly of of a load side trip test but did not work properly when a test was preformed on one of the outlets on the GFCI itself.
So now I test both top and bottom outlets ont he GFCI and an outlet downstream of the load connection.
Unfortunatley (or fortunatley- depending on my mood) it was an inspector who found it the first time.