kitchen island receptacles

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Pierre C Belarge said:
As I read the different section numbers here, I see no prohibition of additional receptacles installed above and beyond the code minimums.
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When the code is written in terms of, "at least one," then any and all that are installed must meet the specified requirements.
 
Not at all, Pierre. At the very beginning of 210.52, there is a general statement that all receptacles described below are in addition to any that are located more than 5.5 feet off the ground. That is the only location limitation that applies to hallway receptacles, since 210.52(H) adds no other restrictions on location. But 210.52(C)(5) does add a restriction on location, and it applies only to countertop spaces. Its exception, allowing for receptacles to be below the countertop, applies only to islands and peninsulas.
 
Charlie you just love playing with language. Only you would see it this way. :D

Suppose I have a peninsula with one side facing the dining room and one side facing, obviously, the kitchen. I would need a recep on the peninsula that would satisfy 210.52(C)(3). Agreed?

Now what about the wall that is created on the backside of this peninsula. Am I not required to have an outlet for the living room? The one up high would not satisfy this since that is a kitchen recep. Now you are asking me to install a recep. up high to satisfy the LR requirement? We have always had to install them low and not on the kitchen circuit. If I install it high it may be considered a kitchen recep. :confused:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Charlie you just love playing with language. Only you would see it this way.
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You are too kind. :D
Dennis Alwon said:
Suppose I have a peninsula with one side facing the dining room and one side facing, obviously, the kitchen. I would need a recep on the peninsula that would satisfy 210.52(C)(3). Agreed?
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Agreed, and I think that about ends our agreement on this issue. :cool:
Dennis Alwon said:
Now what about the wall that is created on the backside of this peninsula. Am I not required to have an outlet for the living room?
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I think not. As I stand in the DR (or LR, you weren't clear which), and as I look at this cabinet-sort-of-thingy, I think, “kitchen peninsula,” which is to say that I do not think, “fixed room divider,” from which I infer that one, and only one receptacle is needed, and seeing that one is installed on the kitchen side, I say we’re done.

Did I mention something about agreements being about to end? :rolleyes:

Did I ever mention that I think 210.52(A)(2)(3) is in serious need of clarification? :wink:
 
charlie b said:
You are too kind. :D
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I know

Agreed, and I think that about ends our agreement on this issue. :cool:
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It always does with this fixed room divider. :D

I think not. As I stand in the DR (or LR, you weren't clear which),
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Sorry I meant LR.

Did I mention something about agreements being about to end? :rolleyes:
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I think you did. ;)

Did I ever mention that I think 210.52(A)(2)(3) is in serious need of clarification? :wink:
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 Yes you did but I am comfortable with it.

And so we agree to disagree on this issue again. :grin:
 
charlie b said:
That will cause the appliance to fall into their lap or onto their feet. It does not matter if the receptacle is just 13 inches below the countertop, or is at toe kick level. It is dangerous.
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More dangerous than a lamp, tv, clock, iron, hair dryer, fish tank, christmas tree, PC, radio, vacuum cleaner...?

That's pretty thin soup. The required receptacles are supposed to cover our countertop needs so I don't need to plug in those countertop appliances way down low, right?

Those toe kick receptacles would obviously be used for something else, like the christmas tree we put there every year, or the vacuum cleaner (I don't want to drag that nasty cord over my countertop) or the ...
 
charlie b said:
I see that I am not getting much support for my point of view. That’s a first! :wink: :D
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Oh, stop bragging! :wink:

? Putting a receptacle in the space well below an island or peninsular countertop, and claiming you don’t intend it to serve the countertop, is a stretch. You might as well put an “extra” receptacle in a wall counter space, not protect it with GFCI, and claim it doesn’t have to be GFCI protected because it is not one of the ones required to serve the countertop. It’s there; it counts.
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Would you also say we're prohibited from mounting any receptacles in a residential bathroom more than 3ft away from the sink?

210.52(C)(5) tells us not to put receptacles more than 12 inches below the counter. It gives no leeway for “extra” receptacles. It’s there; it counts.
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I don't read that.
 
charlie b said:
So I infer that if you put a receptacle on an island or peninsula, it must be located where 210.52(C)(5) tells us to locate it, even if it is an "extra" one.
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I will not buy into this thinking - at all! It is code heresy, and will only lead to bloody revolution. It will tear at the fabric of the flat universe.
 
charlie b said:
That will cause the appliance to fall into their lap or onto their feet. It does not matter if the receptacle is just 13 inches below the countertop, or is at toe kick level. It is dangerous.
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mivey said:
More dangerous than a lamp, tv, clock, iron, hair dryer, fish tank, christmas tree, PC, radio, vacuum cleaner...?
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Yes, more dangerous than those things. I have tripped over a cord or two in my time, at which times I took a moment to move the cord out of the path a person would take while walking around the room. The cord for a floor lamp is plugged in near the base of the lamp, and the cord can easily be moved between the lamp and the wall, where people don?t generally walk. The cord for the TV is behind the TV stand, where people don?t generally walk. The cord for the Christmas tree is behind the tree stand, where people don?t generally walk. The cords for my nightstand?s table lamp and clock radio are behind the nightstand, where people don?t generally walk. The cord for a hair dryer is plugged in above the bathroom counter, and doesn?t reach the floor. The cord for the PC is plugged in at the back of the computer desk, against the wall, where people don?t generally walk.

But people do stand at, and work around, an island or peninsula. Also, people do sometimes sit on stools that are right next to island or peninsula countertops. If an appliance located on the counter surface is plugged into an outlet that is far enough below the countertop, then it will be in the way of legs and knees. That is why I call this situation more dangerous.

One more thing. If you trip over the cord of a floor or table lamp, what is the worst that can happen? The light bulb will break, and perhaps the lamp shade will be damaged. If your knee bumps into the cord of a crock pot on the countertop while you are sitting near the countertop, what is the worst that can happen? You get burned by the contents of the crock pot. That is also why I call this situation more dangerous.
 
LarryFine said:
Would you also say we're prohibited from mounting any receptacles in a residential bathroom more than 3ft away from the sink?
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Not at all. If I put one receptacle within 3 feet of the bathroom sink, and a second receptacle 5 feet from the sink, have I met the requirement of, ?At least one receptacle within 3 feet?? Yes I have. On the other hand, if I put one receptacle 6 inches below an island countertop, and a second receptacle at toe kick level, have I met the requirement of, ?Receptacle outlets shall be located above . . . the countertop,? or at least have I met the exception, ?. . . receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 inches below a countertop . . . ?? No, I have not.

The difference between the island and peninsula rule and all other receptacle rules is that it has a location requirement that begins with ?Receptacle outlets shall be located. . . .?
 
charlie b said:

Not at all. If I put one receptacle within 3 feet of the bathroom sink, and a second receptacle 5 feet from the sink, have I met the requirement of, ?At least one receptacle within 3 feet?? Yes I have. On the other hand, if I put one receptacle 6 inches below an island countertop, and a second receptacle at toe kick level, have I met the requirement of, ?Receptacle outlets shall be located above . . . the countertop,? or at least have I met the exception, ?. . . receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 12 inches below a countertop . . . ?? No, I have not.

The difference between the island and peninsula rule and all other receptacle rules is that it has a location requirement that begins with ?Receptacle outlets shall be located. . . .?
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That only applies to the min requirement. What will you plug in that even has a 3 foot cord ? And why would they use the one down on floor when there is one 6 inches from the top ?
Your reading too much into the words.
 
Charlie you say that 210.52(C)(5) tells you specifically where to place receps.

Am I to infer that I cannot place a recep above the upper cabinets of a wall counter space because it says I can't install them over 20" above the c'top?

I install receps there in about half the houses I wire.
 
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