Kitchen remodel two questions

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Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Outlet as per Art 100:
A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.

Therefore the NEC does not permit any other outlet (type - whether lighting or receptacles, etc...) to be supplied by the SAB circuits.
Other outlets such as - range hoods, outdoor receptacles :)

Pierre
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

I know you're capable of a real answer. What's this defining an outlet bit?

Alright, I'll let you off the hook because I'm annoyed with CMP 2 right now.

:D
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Just a quick point...on the 2005 requirement for an individual branch circuit for the hood. That only applies if the hood is cord and plug connected.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

So, 210.52(B)(3), 210.52(B)(1), 210.11(C)(1) and 210.52(B)(2) in a very messy way say you can put the hood on a required SA circuit if it's cord and plug attatched at a receptacle. I think.

So you're saying the 2005 will eliminate that option leaving no way to connect the hood to the SA circuits at all.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

There is a distinction drawn by the wording, 422.16(B)(4) only applies to cord and plug connected range hoods. If you were inclined to put say, the dishwasher and the hood on the same circuit you could by directly hard-wiring the hood. (Provided, of course, you're following all the loading rules in 210.)

I'm puzzled as to why they'd make a distinction between hard-wired and cord and plug connected. If I were to want to install a microwave where a hood once was, the hood's hard-wired installation is not going to deter me. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, IMO. :)
So, 210.52(B)(3), 210.52(B)(1), 210.11(C)(1) and 210.52(B)(2) in a very messy way say you can put the hood on a required SA circuit if it's cord and plug attatched at a receptacle. I think.
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I think so too. A hood isn't large, and is mentioned in 422, Appliances. If you really wanted to get technical, the outlet for a hood would be above it, generally in a cabinet, and outlets in cabinets aren't specifically allowed in 210.52(B)(1). :)
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by georgestolz:
If you really wanted to get technical, the outlet for a hood would be above it, generally in a cabinet, and outlets in cabinets aren't specifically allowed in 210.52(B)(1). :D
QUOTE]
They aren't?
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Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

What's bugging me George is that this stupid 1/3 amp motor ends up on a light circuit. Now put a 1000 watt microwave on that.

I don't like the NEC attempting to do future planning in this manner. It's outside the perview.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

George
The distinction between hardwired and cord&plug connection has been added, because of the influx of DIYers installing more electrical than ever before.
Also:
"This change recognizes that combination hood and microwave units are commonly installed as a replacement for standard range hoods."
From the 2005 Analysis of Changes, IAEI.

Pierre
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
They aren't?
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Technically, I think it's questionable. Is it in a wall? Countertop outlets are normally in a wall, but they are countertop outlets. They list every type of install they can think of, but shouldn't have. Leaves a void. Then again, the outlet wasn't installed to satisfy one of the codes mentioned in 210.52(B)(1).

The distinction between hardwired and cord&plug connection has been added, because of the influx of DIYers installing more electrical than ever before.
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By that rationale shouldn't they just require a microwave or range hood to be supplied by a receptacle on a dedicated circuit and be done with it? Now there's nuances, holes, and they still didn't accomplish what they were going for, IMO. With a hard-wired hood, they're gonna make a flying splice buried behind the microwave, install a receptacle in the cabinet. Did this change really fix a problem?

What's bugging me George is that this stupid 1/3 amp motor ends up on a light circuit. Now put a 1000 watt microwave on that.

I don't like the NEC attempting to do future planning in this manner. It's outside the perview.
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Pierre's statement does bring this into the safety realm, IMO. A DIY'er will do some ugly things in correlation to how we originally wired his house. If he has a receptacle, be doesn't have much cause to create fire hazards to get his microwave in.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Technically, I think it's questionable. Is it in a wall? Countertop outlets are normally in a wall, but they are countertop outlets. They list every type of install they can think of, but shouldn't have. Leaves a void. Then again, the outlet wasn't installed to satisfy one of the codes mentioned in 210.52(B)(1). [/QB]
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George, slowly so I can understand. Why can I not install a receptacle in a cabinet?
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Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

I am usually against "What if's" but I think the code nailed this perfectly. If you install a receptacle for a hood it must be a separate circuit. Simple. This really is a safety issue more than a what if. I think historically there are many micro hoods being installed by the average Joe in place of standard vent hoods. Also there are many hoods now that require a separate circuit anyway. They ain't your grandmas hood! :D
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

and outlets in cabinets aren't specifically allowed in 210.52(B)(1).
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Sorry George, I'm gonna have to do this to ya.

Attractive lighting fixtures aren't specificly allowed by the NEC either.

Now for NEC fortune telling:

Ok, so in an apartment building you'll need a dedicated circuit for a 1/3 amp fan. Because you know that the renter will want to replace the hood with a wave.

How bout the guy who puts a microwave on the counter, that's ok, but it's wrong when it's over the stove. Why not just make the requirement 3 SA circuits. (Oh, wait a minute, maybe they did, except you can't use one.) Why not say you can't plug anything into the SA circuits at all because you might overload them, given that everyone knows how much power kitchen appliances use. Lutron could invent a receptacle that wont accept a plug.

I know someone's going to plug a compressor in in the garage. Better put a couple or three SA circuits in there too.

We better start running everything with 10 gauge on and on and on.

Ok, I'm done ranting. I don't disagree there's a valid issue worthy of some consideration. I just don't like the NEC reading tarot cards and essentialy sending innocent people the bill for their readings.

You could put a 150 watt non-reflective bulb in a recessed can too.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by physis:
[Now for NEC fortune telling:

Ok, so in an apartment building you'll need a dedicated circuit for a 1/3 amp fan. Because you know that the renter will want to replace the hood with a wave.


I know someone's going to plug a compressor in in the garage. Better put a couple or three SA circuits in there too.


You could put a 150 watt non-reflective bulb in a recessed can too. [/QB]
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Ok,
#1 Hardwire it if you would like. Issue resolved. The micro on the counter is plugged into a sa circuit. The hood is probably on a loaded lighting circuit.
#2 Why wouldn't you install circuits to handle a known load.
#3 If the can is rated for it is no problem. If it isn't the manufacturers have taken care of that issue. Thermal switch turns the light off.

[ January 12, 2005, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

I agree, that hardwiring's an "out", my typical meathod anyway.

#2 Why wouldn't you install circuits to handle a known load.
#3 If the can is rated for it is no problem. If it isn't the manufacturers have taken care of that issue. Thermal switch turns the light off.
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Item #2. It's not a known load, it's a presumed future load.

Item #3. There's also a circuit breaker on the SA circuit. Circuit breaker turns the overload off.

Edit: I missed your comment on the lighting circuit. I'm in agreement that if anything the hood should be on an SA and not a lighting circuit. I think that alone would handle the situation. I never have liked the idea that the hood is sort of religated to a lighting circuit anyway.

The microwave is not going to be running at 1000 watts for more than a few minutes at a time,

[ January 12, 2005, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: physis ]
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by electricmanscott:
George, slowly so I can understand. Why can I not install a receptacle in a cabinet?
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210.52(B)(1) The two or more SA's shall serve the specific things we declare.
210.52(B)(2) Nothing else.

They didn't declare outlets hidden in cabinets, so technically, wouldn't you say the range hood is off limits to the SA circuit? They're being restrictive.
I am usually against "What if's" but I think the code nailed this perfectly. If you install a receptacle for a hood it must be a separate circuit. Simple.
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Wouldn't "require a microwave or range hood to be supplied by a receptacle on a dedicated circuit" be simpler? It's still froggy. Nothing changed! The microwave still ends up on a lighting circuit, and literally can't be placed on the heavy-duty circuits for the kitchen! :)
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

From page 1

By Physis:

If you start at 210.52(B)(3) then go to 210.52(B)(1) then to 210.11(C)(1) then to 210.52(B)(2)

beacause that's how each of these codes read, when you get to the last one it says you can't do anything that isn't in the second code I listed above.

If you're not dizzy or nausious from all this you may or may not remember that somewhere in there, you ready?

You can use those SA circuits for receptacle outlets in breakfast room, dining room, pantry and kitchen.
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Ok George, I'm willing to be wrong in my interpretation of this fine peice of code work but, if I'm right, then I can put a receptacle in a cabinet in any of those rooms.
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

I think the mention of "refrigeration equipment" in 210.52(B)(1) kinda supports the exclusion of the hood too.

I think we should be able to put the hood on the SA. Hey, I've done it. But the way it's written, they've been too exclusive in their allowances, IMO.

Maybe the CMP (and us too) have lost sight of what they were trying to accomplish, and got mired in connecting the dots and trying to think of "what if's" and who knows what else. I agree with the specifics they get into in places, but don't know why they let something simple to get so complicated in the end. :(
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

George, gimme a code arguement. Does it say we can't? Cause I already suffered through reading this mess once this week. It's your turn. :D
 
Re: Kitchen remodel two questions

Originally posted by physis:
George, gimme a code arguement. Does it say we can't? Cause I already suffered through reading this mess once this week. It's your turn. :D
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No kidding. Only once? I'll just say 210.52(B)(2). The way this is written just leads to headaches, IMO.
 
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