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a.wayne3@verizon.net
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Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Should have used spell check LOL LOL
Should have used spell check LOL LOL
Kitchen sink recepticle
- Thread starter don
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jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Yes we must cover the wall space.But i could use EITHER of the SA circuits to cover wall space.It said nothing of using both circuits other than it is an option.Had i put in 2 SA for the counter(assuming we had one ) then at my option i could run a 3rd SA circuit for the walls.So what im saying is if there are no counters there are no SA circuits needed for COUNTERS.And its only the counters that require 2 SA circuits.The wall just must meet the 2 ft and 6 ft rule.That could be on 1 circuit.So my no counter kitchen(if it's still a kitchen)only used 1 circuit and because it's a kitchen is a SA circuit.
Try it this way,draw a simple kitchen with counters and a few walls with say 4 receptacles
Now put left counter on circuit A and right counter on circuit B ,and now feed the 4 outlets on the walls at say 12 inches on a seperate circuit C.Your kitchen is now legal as far as outlets for appliances.
Now i remove your kitchen cabinet and counter and replace with a laundry type tub.
With the counter being gone i no longer need the 2 counter receptacles,so remove A and B
Now are you with me ?
SWISHER had me do exactly that on a remodel between a counter that had a receptacle ,there was 2 feet of wall between cabinet and door to dining room,not even useable without blocking walk way.Gave him his receptacle.
Can't really argue that one,counter recepts serve counters not walls,and walls can't serve counters.
[ January 16, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Yes we must cover the wall space.But i could use EITHER of the SA circuits to cover wall space.It said nothing of using both circuits other than it is an option.Had i put in 2 SA for the counter(assuming we had one ) then at my option i could run a 3rd SA circuit for the walls.So what im saying is if there are no counters there are no SA circuits needed for COUNTERS.And its only the counters that require 2 SA circuits.The wall just must meet the 2 ft and 6 ft rule.That could be on 1 circuit.So my no counter kitchen(if it's still a kitchen)only used 1 circuit and because it's a kitchen is a SA circuit.
Try it this way,draw a simple kitchen with counters and a few walls with say 4 receptacles
Now put left counter on circuit A and right counter on circuit B ,and now feed the 4 outlets on the walls at say 12 inches on a seperate circuit C.Your kitchen is now legal as far as outlets for appliances.
Now i remove your kitchen cabinet and counter and replace with a laundry type tub.
With the counter being gone i no longer need the 2 counter receptacles,so remove A and B
Now are you with me ?
SWISHER had me do exactly that on a remodel between a counter that had a receptacle ,there was 2 feet of wall between cabinet and door to dining room,not even useable without blocking walk way.Gave him his receptacle.
Can't really argue that one,counter recepts serve counters not walls,and walls can't serve counters.
[ January 16, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
If I am reading what you are saying correctly you almost have it right.
You seem to be saying the only place that the kitchen is required to have to small appliance circuits presents is the counter space. That is correct.
If your saying if a dwelling has no counter space the kitchen only is required to be served by a single small appliance circuit. That is also correct in that is a design issue and not a code issue. But you haven?t made it clear that the dwelling is still required to be served by at least two (no less) small appliance circuits. How you arrange those circuits is a design issue.
Here is how I see it. A dwelling (no matter how small) is required no less than two small appliance circuits. The counter area if existing is required to be served by two small appliance circuits. Two counter small appliance circuits required and two dwelling small appliance circuits required equals a total of two small appliance circuits for the dwelling
This is Code Min. not design and not practicle
GOD Bless!
David
[ January 17, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: david ]
If I am reading what you are saying correctly you almost have it right.
You seem to be saying the only place that the kitchen is required to have to small appliance circuits presents is the counter space. That is correct.
If your saying if a dwelling has no counter space the kitchen only is required to be served by a single small appliance circuit. That is also correct in that is a design issue and not a code issue. But you haven?t made it clear that the dwelling is still required to be served by at least two (no less) small appliance circuits. How you arrange those circuits is a design issue.
Here is how I see it. A dwelling (no matter how small) is required no less than two small appliance circuits. The counter area if existing is required to be served by two small appliance circuits. Two counter small appliance circuits required and two dwelling small appliance circuits required equals a total of two small appliance circuits for the dwelling
This is Code Min. not design and not practicle
GOD Bless!
David
[ January 17, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: david ]
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
- Occupation
- Massachusetts Master Electrician, one man show.
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Jim you appear to be correct. You can supply other receptacles in the kitchen from either or both small appliance circuits. So I guess one circuit for wall space would satisfy the code if there were no counter.
As for the wall space requirements, I guess the NEC does require those receptacles so we have to put them in. I have been nabbed a couple times for not doing it in situations that you describe. Seems pointless but they give us no exceptions.
[ January 17, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
Jim you appear to be correct. You can supply other receptacles in the kitchen from either or both small appliance circuits. So I guess one circuit for wall space would satisfy the code if there were no counter.
As for the wall space requirements, I guess the NEC does require those receptacles so we have to put them in. I have been nabbed a couple times for not doing it in situations that you describe. Seems pointless but they give us no exceptions.
[ January 17, 2004, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: electricmanscott ]
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Only reason i brought this up was to prove that question last week had a wrong answer in that it ASSUMED we had a counter so ASSUMED we had 2 SA circuits.Hope i never see a kitchen designed that poorly LOL.As to our firehouse i am sure they have at least a small counter.
Am involved in wiring an office right now that while it has a dishwasher ,refrig.,sink,and a dedicated microwave ,it only has one counter top duplex.This is legal because no one lives here.Very clear they will be doing a lot of cooking,but not a DWELLING.
Do believe NEC needs to rethink areas that prepare food.
Only reason i brought this up was to prove that question last week had a wrong answer in that it ASSUMED we had a counter so ASSUMED we had 2 SA circuits.Hope i never see a kitchen designed that poorly LOL.As to our firehouse i am sure they have at least a small counter.
Am involved in wiring an office right now that while it has a dishwasher ,refrig.,sink,and a dedicated microwave ,it only has one counter top duplex.This is legal because no one lives here.Very clear they will be doing a lot of cooking,but not a DWELLING.
Do believe NEC needs to rethink areas that prepare food.
pierre
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Jim
I would hate to see your response to a complicated question.
210.52(A) Requires receptacles as specified. So for .52, kitchens with wall space have to follow the spacing as specified (A). (B) requires the two or more small appliance branch circuits for both (A) wall space &(C) countertop space.
Wall spaces (A) and countertop areas (C) in a kitchen require different spacing, but both locations still require the two or more Small Appliance Branch Circuits (B).
This is similar to the different requirements for GFCI locations in a kitchen.
Pierre
Jim
I would hate to see your response to a complicated question.
210.52(A) Requires receptacles as specified. So for .52, kitchens with wall space have to follow the spacing as specified (A). (B) requires the two or more small appliance branch circuits for both (A) wall space &(C) countertop space.
Wall spaces (A) and countertop areas (C) in a kitchen require different spacing, but both locations still require the two or more Small Appliance Branch Circuits (B).
This is similar to the different requirements for GFCI locations in a kitchen.
Pierre
jimwalker
Senior Member
- Location
- TAMPA FLORIDA
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
Pierre ,sorry if i was bull headed.I reread for 9th time and 210.11 c 1 straightened this out for me.
I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.
I am ok now with the 2 SA circuits even if there is no countertop.
[ January 17, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
Pierre ,sorry if i was bull headed.I reread for 9th time and 210.11 c 1 straightened this out for me.
I have been wrong before and will be wrong again.
I am ok now with the 2 SA circuits even if there is no countertop.
[ January 17, 2004, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Re: Kitchen sink recepticle
pierre
There is nothing in 210.52 that requires that both small appliance circuits to serve the small appliance wall rec. in the kitchen The code simply says that all the required small appliance receptacles in a dwelling will be served by at least two small appliance branch circuits
It certainly is more practical to have both small appliance circuits in the kitchen since in to- days world that is where most of your small appliances are used. You could serve the dinning room with one of he small appliance circuits and the kitchen with the other. I am not recommending this but here it is again this is a min standard design to provide safety but not intended to be a design manual.
pierre
There is nothing in 210.52 that requires that both small appliance circuits to serve the small appliance wall rec. in the kitchen The code simply says that all the required small appliance receptacles in a dwelling will be served by at least two small appliance branch circuits
It certainly is more practical to have both small appliance circuits in the kitchen since in to- days world that is where most of your small appliances are used. You could serve the dinning room with one of he small appliance circuits and the kitchen with the other. I am not recommending this but here it is again this is a min standard design to provide safety but not intended to be a design manual.
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