76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
chevyx92 said:
So,....can you tell us of personal injuries/deaths and fires you have encountered over the years do to these "unsafe" wiring methods?
Knob and tube 600V
- Thread starter JJWalecka
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So,....can you tell us of personal injuries/deaths and fires you have encountered over the years do to these "unsafe" wiring methods?
chevyx92
Senior Member
- Location
- VA BCH, VA
Fires yes. Injuries/deaths no. If it is so "Safe" then the insurance companys wouldn't have such a problem with insuring a house that has that wiring.76nemo said:
- Location
- Massachusetts
chevyx92 said:
If it was truly unsafe when properly installed / worked on, I doubt the NEC would still allow installing more of it.
chevyx92
Senior Member
- Location
- VA BCH, VA
Article 394.10 allows it for extensions of "existing" installations". I don't see where it's allowed as a method for new homes. They still have to have an article to govern the existing and what you can do with it, thats why we have 394. IMO.iwire said:
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
chevyx92 said:
Yes, and it would be foolhardy for the NEC to condemn a wiring method that is still safely in operation in millions of homes. To do so would open the door for requiring the replacement of all of it, which would place unecessary financial burden on homeowners. I'm all for things that bring us work, but there is a limit to what is prudent.
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
chevyx92 said:
Fires from an original K&T installation??? I would like to be on the team to investigate that. Where did the fire/s originate?
- Location
- Massachusetts
chevyx92 said:
Correct, but if it was 'unsafe' then we could not extend it period.
The EGC issue is not limited to K&T, old BX and old NM do not provide EGCs either. The NEC has ways to provide grounding for any outlet not supplied with a grounding means.
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
chevyx92 said:
Another point to insurance companies,..... Who in the hootenanny are their rep's in the field????????? I had an insurance rep tell me last year that a SE service drop was no longer UV resistant because it was painted. I wish I could of been the HO and spent the $150 fine to slap him upside his head.
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
chevy, you, and the insurance companies have a point with two-wire, but the NEC allows us to have them maintained with GFCI protection.
- Location
- Massachusetts
To be clear, I don't think I will ever want to install new K&T. All I am saying is that undisturbed, properly protected K&T is not a big worry to me. I still have a few lighting outlets in my own home that are supplied by K&T.
peter d
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
iwire said:
Just get some old tubes and knobs, a roll of THHN, some solder and friction tape and you're off and running.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Locally, the POCO/gas provider had an incentive to insulate buildings as required by another energy law - legislated an excemption to the "uses not permitted" to allow insulating attics and walls with K&T if they were inspected by a licenced C-10 for deterioration / illegal modification - lot of work came out of that.... Back when the Insulation Companies were actually following the letter of the law... As they now just go ahead and do it - sans an inspection....480sparky said:
But back when they were - I would often find stuff that was dangerous with or without insulation - and YES most of it done in a period I like to refer to as the "Death of Workmanship Era" - i.e. 70's through 80's when a lot of old timers retired and it seemed that the trade took on a new low of standards due to what Old Inspectors and Contractors have told me was actually due to NM wiring methods and the "So easy a caveman can do it" version of electrical work. Many of the old guys saw it as a dumbing down of the trade - and the things I've found kind of confirmed that.
Even with insulation IMO K&T can be safely done - the premise with K&T disapating heat in free air is sort of a mosnomer when one thinks of the same princable in use with NM. Splice containment in boxes with NM is the real benifit - but keeping insulation clear of K&T splices does the same IMO.
Back to the subject of the OP - I have not seen any system in K&T set up to utilize 600v although the code I believe has required it to use insulation materials rated for such since it required it for all other wiring methods at the same time thermoplastics were introduced and mandated for chapter 3 methods - see 300.2 Not sure when that happened - but I see K&T change from cloth, rubber and cambric around the late 50's. Other than that - the only systems over 600v I ever see done in methods simular (NOT the same) to K&T are neon signs.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
History of grounding - another subject... Insulation drying up and coming off depends on a lot of factors - use - climate.... Fixed loads and cooler climates do much better... Switched noodels... Used to be allowed and a preferred method - much like fused neutrals of the time....chevyx92 said:
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
I have not had any insurance company ever refuse a house with K&T - only with "fuses" - and much of that is due to Industry Giants like every breaker manufacturer saying you HAVE to buy our new product or your house will burn to the ground and kill your whole family in a Dante's Inferno type torturous death - Like this.....chevyx92 said:
http://www.afcisafety.org/
http://www.dps.state.vt.us/fire/codes/eci_02.pdf
http://www2.sea.siemens.com/products/residential-electrical/afci
I'm sure ads for Romex may have even had pictures of Fire Fighters showing up to the Jones house fully engulfed because it was wired in K&T - and you had better protect your family from a firery death... (Wasn't around for that... or any breaker ads doing the same) But creation of myth of UNsafety is and has always been a way to sell stuff.... And do electricians write policies on homes - no - insurance guys do, and at the advice of manufacturers.... Who also have a tendancy to write codes...
chevyx92
Senior Member
- Location
- VA BCH, VA
Must not have dealt with many homes with it or insurance companies. It's very common for Ins. companies to not insure homes with K+T or at least a Master Electrician who will sign a letter saying it's safe. I wouldn'y put my name on it, you can not me!e57 said:
My house has K&T in the walls and when I purchased it 5 years ago it still had it in 90% of the basement. My insurance policy even lists that it has original K&T wiring and I had no problem with getting insurance. My house was built in 1910 as were all the houses in my neighborhood. Funny how a housing development can be almost 100 years old and all the houses are still the original structures.chevyx92 said:
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
Okay, let's start over. What besides no EGC worries you so much chevyx92 about K&T
chevyx92
Senior Member
- Location
- VA BCH, VA
Okay, how about this, if it is such a safe wiring method why can't you wire a new home today with it? That's what I thought.76nemo said:Okay, let's start over. What besides no EGC worries you so much chevyx92 about K&T
76nemo
Senior Member
- Location
- Ogdensburg, NY
IR
IR
Would you feel better if I walked you through a dwelling with an IR cam., and found no worry spots?
How come we can't do it today? 95%+ of the service drops in my town are all SE, most of the guys here will tell you that's BS, and I have NEVER EVER seen it cause a problem:roll:
IR
Would you feel better if I walked you through a dwelling with an IR cam., and found no worry spots?
How come we can't do it today? 95%+ of the service drops in my town are all SE, most of the guys here will tell you that's BS, and I have NEVER EVER seen it cause a problem:roll:
electricalperson
Senior Member
- Location
- massachusetts
do you want to wire your house with knob and tube when romex makes life so much easier?chevyx92 said:
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