Knob & tube & Insurance Co.?

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acrwc10

acrwc10

Master Code Professional
Location
CA
Occupation
Building inspector
I resently was contacted by a friend who is buying an older house. I knew what was comming next, the knob and tube comment from the homeowners insurance co. I was wondering how every one else handles these calls. Do you test and report on the K&T system, or do you just quote and replace. Here is the e-mail I got.

I just got a call from our insurance company and here is what we need within 30 days of closing

Inspection from certified electrician which includes:

Statement if knob & tube wiring is active or inactive
If active, where is it located in the house
Plan to replace/bypass the wiring if it is active


I find it difficult to believe that every house sold that has K&T wiring is getting rewired, I see many houses selling that I know have K&T and I don't see any electricians at them after closing escrow. What ideas does everyone have on this situation. I should add I normally replace old K&T when it gets exposed during other work but I don't normally go digging it out unless there is reason to.
 
Tell him to find another insurance company or plan to rewire all of the K&T in the house. Not all insurance companies have these requirements. If it were my house I would remove all of the stuff anyway. IMO it has exceeded it's life expectancy and should be replaced.
 
For what it will cost in insurance over next 10 years it might be cheaper to rewire.This is simple math here.Insurance companies are treating this house like a 16 year old boy that just got a drivers license and a new corvette.Do you blame them ?
 
acrwc10 said:
Inspection from certified electrician which includes:

Statement if knob & tube wiring is active or inactive
If active, where is it located in the house.
Click to expand...

I believe that the reason the insurance company is looking to see if K&T is active is to charge higher rates, however, K&T when installed was not such a bad system except for the lack of ground & the increased EMF's (maybe it wasn't such a good system) but over the years HO started insulating the exterior walls and attics of the house. K&T was not meant to have insulation installed around it. It seems to be a violation and potentially troublesome with the extra heat buildup due to the insulation and the extra load that we as human beings have demanded over the years. Just my $1.00 worth.
 
Knob & tube & Insurance Co. ?

Knob & tube & Insurance Co. ?

At a class I attended, the instructor explained that insurance co's that require that fuses be changed to circuit breakers,learned that doing so is a violation on K&T wiring because circuit breakers do not offer the same protection as fuses, so the change creates a hazard. In an effort to correct this error, they now require that K&T wiring be removed.

He also said that when doing a service upgrade the electrician must provide gfci protection for any circuits that do not have a gec.

Has anyone one hared of this?
 
K&t

K&t

Romeo,

That was a requirement here in Ma. for awhile but w/ so much K&T, AC, & NM w/o egc it was ammended. Especially w/ K&T were neutrals are being sw'd. Like its was said above call another insurance co.
 
K and T

K and T

I just re-wired a home that had k & t. The inspection office told me I had to change all the k&t. It already had gone from fuses to circuit breakers but they did not change any thing else, no up-grades at all. I ended-up going the whole nine yards. Brought everything up to code. I did not change the ceiling boxes, they were pretty strong. The only thing is they didn't have any clamp in them to clamp the wire. Old k&t has an spring to hold the wire, I don't know if the inspector will say anything or not.
 
Not sure when Knob and Tubing was no longer a standard wiring method, it was before my time. But based upon the knob and tubing I have seen I would recommend replacing it. Insurance companies are tryting to protect their investors, the home owner should think about protecting his/her family.
 
brian john said:
the home owner should think about protecting his/her family.
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure that k&t is as bad as everyone says. I have k&t in my house that is still active. I have removed a lot of it but there is still some that feeds lights that I don't plan on removing anytime soon. I would rather not mess with it at all and leave it in place.
 
jeff43222 said:
About half the wiring in my house is 85-year-old K&T. If I feel ambitious this summer I might rewire the place, but it's not a high priority.
Click to expand...

I've been saying the same thing about my Zinsco panel for years.
 
paul said:
I've been saying the same thing about my Zinsco panel for years.
Click to expand...

Now that is scary,I would rather sleep in a house with K & T than a house with a Zinsco panel>I`ve seen those panels that you could arc weld within the circuit before the breaker would trip.
 
K&T is like every thing else, it comes down to if it was properly installed and how many wanna be electricians have there hand in it over the years, if nothing else I tell people they should at least try to re feed circuits with heavy loads and reduce the load on the K&T, But recommend replacing all of it eventually.
 
In my opinion, there is a natural "half life" for K&T from causes that are unrelated to the K&T.

Room surfaces wind up being replaced. One can only cover up so much, and, eventually, the accumulated coverings get removed.

Partition arrangements no longer satisfy the needs of the current owner, old partitions are removed / altered, and new partitions created.

Along the way, the existing K&T succumbs.

I'm in the middle of a reset of an existing 1908 dwelling that is getting a Certificate of Occupancy again because it was boarded up for a while and then "condemned", and local ordinance requires the issuing of a new CO.

The last time work was done on this dwelling was in the mid '70s. There is an existing Montgomery Wards 100 A CB service center and a bunch of '70s outlets added along side the K&T outlets. Now, a chunk, about 40%, of the K&T outlets are being replaced with newer cable methods as part of a largely cosmetic reset of the dwelling.

At another time, in the future, the ceilings will be gutted to the joists, and the remaining K&T lighting outlets will be upgraded.

Eventually, the K&T is pealed back to zero.

To me, an insurance company, attempting to manipulate its profit margin by refusing to have K&T as part of its risk, is trying to make an artificial world where homeowners pay them premiums and never have claims. I'll bet this insurance company will drop the homeowner like a hot potato if a claim is made.

Find a different insurance company.
 
Theres some abbreviation in this forum that stump me can anyone give me a hint IMO AHJ just to mention a couple I read this stuff everyday, more than the newspaper and am very intimidated by some of the knowledge thanks in advance KEG
 
Sure!

IMO = in my opinion
AHJ = authority having jurisdiction

Welcome to the Forum!:)
 
guschash said:
I just re-wired a home that had k & t. The inspection office told me I had to change all the k&t. It already had gone from fuses to circuit breakers but they did not change any thing else, no up-grades at all. I ended-up going the whole nine yards. Brought everything up to code. I did not change the ceiling boxes, they were pretty strong. The only thing is they didn't have any clamp in them to clamp the wire. Old k&t has an spring to hold the wire, I don't know if the inspector will say anything or not.
Click to expand...

I am working on another job where the "existing historical'' portion of the house was to remain untouched. well that would have been all well and good if the GC's demo crew had not cut off the K&T at the plate lines and in the basement. We had to replace it with out cutting the walls up. Since the old boxes have 5/8'' knock outs and no clamps this is what I came up with and ran by the inspector for aproval,Taking a romex clamp out of a "new" metal box then tap an 8-32 in the old box to install the new clamp. Then tap a 10-32 ground screw in. Finally putting a flat washer on a toggle bolt for a knock out seal, since I could not find a 5/8'' KO seal at the time. This is an example of how it worked. Note the green grd. screw in the upper left. I did fill all the knock outs on the installed boxes, and replaced any boxes that were accessible without damaging the plaster.

PDRM0054.jpg
 
The biggest problem with knob and tube wiring has nothing to do with the
original wiring. It has everything to do with what has happened after the fact.
Most old houses do not have as many electrical circuits as new houses. If a
circuit became overtaxed and 15 amp fuses were constantly blowing, some
illinformed home owners would put in 25 or 30 amp fuses to ?solve? the
problem. Allowing 25 or 30 amps to flow through a wire which was not
intended to handle that much electricity, causes the wire to overheat.
This can cause the wire and the insulation to become brittle.
Some would argue that knob and tube wiring does not have a ground conductor. I would remind them that even modern wiring installed between 1950 and 1960 does not have a ground conductor.
Just my $.02
 
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