lampholders......

Merry Christmas
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Chevy said:
What's the harm in installing a 100 watt in the 65 watt fixture? The wire and socket are rated for it.
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In the one redeeming story of an AFCI breaker that I can recall at the moment, a fixture rated for 60W lamps was installed with 100W lamps 'by mistake'. The fixture managed to melt romex for a foot beyond the fixture, and char the truss the outlet box was attached to.

The AFCI tripped itself to it's own demise, probably due to the GFPE inside it. The homeowner kept resetting it.

So, yeah, I'd say installing lamps larger than what the fixture is rated for is a very bad idea.

Just because the socket is a general-purpose, one-size-fits-all socket widely used among different luminaires should not give us any courage to blatantly ignore the fixture rating/listing. I can't believe this discussion is taking place.
 
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I have seen first hand what can happen when a bulb(s) of higher wattage then the fixture as an assembly is rated. It was a kitchen light in a split-foyer - insulated attic above. The insulation on all the wires in the 8B was GONE - all bare. The sheetrock crumbled when when the fixture was removed, and the attic insulation was chared. There were 3- 100 watt bulbs instead of 3- 60 watt. These rateings are not a joke. My best guess was fire within the month. I will tell you-that HO will pay attention to those rateings from now on.
 
chevyx92 said:
Well we have 2 different expierences with this. All I'm saying is if the wire is rated and lampholder is rated well over it's capacity then I see no harm in a few extra watts! I'm not saying that this is a common practice just theoretically. You mean to tell me you have never swapped out a 65 watt for 100 watt bulb before??
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If this is your belief it is obvious you don't make many residential service calls. I have seen so many burned up wires, lampholders, ceilings, etc. I can't remember them all. The Socket is one part of a fixture.Ussally made by another manufacturer. If that was the only part you could put in what ever wattage lamp listed on the lampholder. Since it is only one part you can't. It is more common practice to use smaller lamps then listed because even the listed wattage on the fixture may be to high for an old KT wiring system.
 
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georgestolz said:
In the one redeeming story of an AFCI breaker that I can recall at the moment, a fixture rated for 60W lamps was installed with 100W lamps 'by mistake'. The fixture managed to melt romex for a foot beyond the fixture, and char the truss the outlet box was attached to.

The AFCI tripped itself to it's own demise, probably due to the GFPE inside it. The homeowner kept resetting it.

So, yeah, I'd say installing lamps larger than what the fixture is rated for is a very bad idea.

Just because the socket is a general-purpose, one-size-fits-all socket widely used among different luminaires should not give us any courage to blatantly ignore the fixture rating/listing. I can't believe this discussion is taking place.
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Believe it. As I said stated before (theoretically), tell me why if I have 2 jelly jar light fixtures(you know the ones you see under kitchen hoods or in walk in coolers, etc..) both have same socket ratings of 660W, same type wires and insulation, same fixture housing and size....yet one says max 65 watt and the other is 100 watt max. The only difference if you physically looked at them would be the stickers on them stating the lamp usage. Nothing else is different what so ever. With that said you still mean to tell me that by putting a 75 or 100 watt bulb in the 65 watt fixture will burn up the wires faster??? Thats no diffferent than taking that 100 watt bulb and placing it in the fixture rated 100 watts. Bottom line is, its the same fixture, just 2 different stickers rating the bulb usage. Do you see what I've been saying now? So for arguements sake I leave it at that.
 
The difference is that article 110 says that we must install equipment according to the listing and labeling. If one fixture is rated and labeled for 65-watt bulbs, we must not exceed that wattage. If you do exceed that wattage you are accepting the liability for the possible failure of that fixture. As others have said it is all about the heat generated by the bulb, not the amp load on the conductors. I have seen many fixtures, usually in residential kitchens, where the owner has installed a higher wattage bulb than the sticker allowed. This leads to damage to the wiring and often to the fixture and/or shade. If the proper bulbs are installed and this damage occurs, the manufacturer is liable. If improper bulbs are installed, the person that installed the improper bulbs is liable. It all comes down to CYA.
 
chevyx92 said:
What's the harm in installing a 100 watt in the 65 watt fixture? The wire and socket are rated for it.
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The wire and socket are rated for the heat that will be generated by the current passing through them. That current, as you pointed out, is less than one amp. So it is no surprise that the wire and socket are rated for that amount of heat.

But that is not the point. ?The point? comes in two parts.

The first part of "the point" is that the wire and socket are also rated to be in the near vicinity of a 65 watt bulb. That bulb will be a heat source unto itself. As little as one half an amp flowing through a 65 watt bulb will cause the bulb to get very hot. We are all well aware of what would happen in you turn one on, wait five minutes, and grab it with your hand. We have all done something like that at least once (i.e., try to replace a bulb without letting the old one cool down first).

The second part of ?the point? is that the amount of heat generated by a 100 watt bulb is significantly higher than the heat generated by a 65 watt bulb. The wire and socket are simply not rated to be in the near vicinity of a 100 watt bulb. That is why there is ?harm,? as you put it, and a ?risk of fire,? as others have suggested, in using a bulb that is rated higher than the manufacturer?s specified limit.
 
chevyx92 said:
Believe it. As I said stated before (theoretically), tell me why if I have 2 jelly jar light fixtures(you know the ones you see under kitchen hoods or in walk in coolers, etc..) both have same socket ratings of 660W, same type wires and insulation, same fixture housing and size....yet one says max 65 watt and the other is 100 watt max. The only difference if you physically looked at them would be the stickers on them stating the lamp usage. Nothing else is different what so ever. With that said you still mean to tell me that by putting a 75 or 100 watt bulb in the 65 watt fixture will burn up the wires faster??? Thats no diffferent than taking that 100 watt bulb and placing it in the fixture rated 100 watts. Bottom line is, its the same fixture, just 2 different stickers rating the bulb usage. Do you see what I've been saying now? So for arguements sake I leave it at that.
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If they are the same fixtures with different labels then someone put the wrong label in one. You seem adamant about this issue in spite of the fact that many of us have told you our experiences. This forum is to learn but it seems like you just want to argue and not learn. I don't understand your attitude.
 
haskindm said:
The difference is that article 110 says that we must install equipment according to the listing and labeling. If one fixture is rated and labeled for 65-watt bulbs, we must not exceed that wattage. If you do exceed that wattage you are accepting the liability for the possible failure of that fixture. As others have said it is all about the heat generated by the bulb, not the amp load on the conductors. I have seen many fixtures, usually in residential kitchens, where the owner has installed a higher wattage bulb than the sticker allowed. This leads to damage to the wiring and often to the fixture and/or shade. If the proper bulbs are installed and this damage occurs, the manufacturer is liable. If improper bulbs are installed, the person that installed the improper bulbs is liable. It all comes down to CYA.
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Yes I understand article 110. And I know we must comply and not install bulbs rated higher than the fixture is rated for. That was never an issue. I was just pointing out that if you have 2 identical fixtures and the only difference was the bulb rating(the sticker telling us max size) and lets say you swapped the stickers, you would never know the difference as they are the same fixture. Like I said earlier theoretically you could place a 75 or 100W bulb in the 65W fixture(becasue its the same fixture as the 100W, just different labels). Thats what I was saying. I'm not saying that you should be doing this.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
If they are the same fixtures with different labels then someone put the wrong label in one. You seem adamant about this issue in spite of the fact that many of us have told you our experiences. This forum is to learn but it seems like you just want to argue and not learn. I don't understand your attitude.
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You don't seem to understand what I was saying.
 
Chevyx92,

The reason those two " jelly jar" fixtures are rated differently is because on

the box one is for wall mount only and the other for wall or cieling, so it is the

use of the fixture not just the parts it's made of.

Also, I do believe you have put larger lamps in fixtures than they are rated,

I base that on posts # 6,8,11,13,15,17,19,and 25. Believe all the others that

it is not something to continue doing.
 
I'm all for theoretical discussions, I was under the impression based on what I've read that this was beyond theory, to "I do it all the time and it's fine."

In general, I've noticed that most fixtures have a pattern in terms of what lamp they'll accept, following Frank's line of reasoning. They frequently have labels on them that say "This Side Up" and "Wall Mount Only" or "Ceiling Mount Only.

Why else would the orientation of the light matter in many of these cases? Heat is the prime issue, IMO (obvious mounting issues for certain fixtures aside).
 
benaround said:
Chevyx92,

The reason those two " jelly jar" fixtures are rated differently is because on

the box one is for wall mount only and the other for wall or cieling, so it is the

use of the fixture not just the parts it's made of.

Also, I do believe you have put larger lamps in fixtures than they are rated,

I base that on posts # 6,8,11,13,15,17,19,and 25. Believe all the others that

it is not something to continue doing.
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I don't know where your getting your info from but I never said one was ceiling and one was wall mount. In fact the two I recently saw were ceiling mounted. And as far as what you believe, thats great for you. You are entitled to think whatever you like.
 
I can't believe this thread has gone this long, arguing over a max. bulb size sticker, if you received two fixtures with different stickers, you should have called the manufacture to see what the actual wattage was supposed to be.
 
Chasing a rabbit...

It's entirely possible that the fixtures are identical except for the labels. When calculating load for an incandescent luminaire we are required to use the largest wattage that the fixture is rated for. It's possible to buy a fixture labeled for reduced wattage. That can make a big difference when IECC comes into play. We certainly don't want to have calc all these fixtures at 660 watts, which we would have to do if there wasn't a separate fixture rating.

That said, I don't consider myself qualified to look at two fixtures with different labels and determine if they are actually identical. I can't tell from visual inspection if the metal is the same material or the same thickness. I can't tell if the glass in one fixture is "plain glass" and the other is "high temp glass" just by looking. I also won't know if the manufacturer has found a problem in the field and has derated the fixture, and what I have is one old label and one new.


Martin
 
Easy Bake Oven

Easy Bake Oven

THIS USES A 100 WATT BULB TOO !!!

easybakeoven.jpg


ANY MORE QUESTIONS ABOUT HEAT AND BULB SIZE ???????
 
stickboy1375 said:
My daughter has one, I only had a 60 watt at the time and that worked just fine, just had to cook it a little longer...:grin:
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Just like the K&T wire.:grin:
 
stickboy1375 said:
My daughter has one, I only had a 60 watt at the time and that worked just fine, just had to cook it a little longer...:grin:
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I wonder what the lampholder is rated for?????
 
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