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landing neutrals on ground bars

Buck Parrish

Buck Parrish

Senior Member
Location
NC & IN
RustyShackleford said:
Looking at a panel replacement, so have to deal with existing wire lengths. Siemens, in their wisdom, decided not to extend neutral bar the entire height of the columns of breakers.

Of course it's not that hard to extend wires using inline Wagos or the like. Speaking of which, is it ok to extend wires using soldered joints protected by heat shrink ? Wagos are clearly ok and easy, but solder joint seems more electrically "sound" - perhaps an issue for the excessively short neutral wire on a surge supressor such as https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/skuPage.CHSPT2ULTRA.html given their exhortation to keep the leads as short as possible. (Seems likely it'd be good for the transmission-line characteristics of the wire to be uniform, to prevent reflections and such on the weird transients that might occur in a surge event, and certainly the soldered joint is more like a continuation of the wire than a Wago or a wire nut).
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Does Siemens make a connector to add a neutral below those short ones? Or do you have to det a longer neutral bar.?
I've not had to. I was just curious. Because some times you'll have more then 20 on one side.
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
LarryFine said:
:unsure: Hmmm. Wouldn't that also prohibit every feeder's neutral?

We have been considering such a jumper to be an extension of the neutral or the neutral bus.
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The feeder neutral is a different animal. What code section would you use to size this jumper?
 
infinity

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
LarryFine said:
Make it the same size as the neutral and there's nothing to calculate.
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I agree that would ensure that it's safe but what code section would allow you to do that? You're creating a common neutral for multiple branch circuits.
 
LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
infinity said:
I agree that would ensure that it's safe but what code section would allow you to do that? You're creating a common neutral for multiple branch circuits.
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In trying to answer you, I need to know why you believe that the same question does not apply to every sub-panel or feed-through-fed panel? What do you see as the functional difference?

Added: For that matter, your position would prohibit adding an extra neutral bar to any panel.

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J

jim dungar

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Wisconsin
Occupation
PE (Retired) - Power Systems
jaggedben said:
I think we've discussed this and not all agree. It's not a violation of 250.142(B) if done at the service equipment. And the enclosure may already be carrying parallel current if something like a meter socket is bonded to the grounded conductor upstream.
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Yes, but an upstream N-G bond is simply creating a NEC compliant parallel path. All other down stream, like in the panel after the bonding screw, are not compliant. It might seem like splitting hairs, but how far downstream would you allow?
 
G

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Eddie702 said:
Electrically it would only be ok with a jumper between the neutral bar and the ground bar. In short with the jumper, it would be like extending the neutral bar.

But in the real world I doubt any inspector would go along with this and yes it probably would violate the panels instructions.

On top of that there is no good reason to do it and it would be confusing.
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Be that as it may, I see it done quite often. If one is adding an ATS ahead of a panel where the grounds and neutrals have been mixed, separating them is a discomfort in the nether regions.
 
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LarryFine

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
ggunn said:
Be that as it may, I see it done quite often. If one is adding an ATS ahead of a panel where the grounds and neutrals have been mixed, separating them is a PITA.
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True, but still required. I've done it plenty of times, and made sure to include it in the contract.

I love seeing an outside disconnect to either replace with the ATS, or mount the ATS next to.
 
R

RustyShackleford

Senior Member
Location
NC
Occupation
electrical engineer
Eddie702 said:
True but it is not known if the add on neutral bar is connected (bonded) to the panel or has insulators. It must have insulators as the panel could be used as a sub panel.
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Actually, looking at the way the factory-installed neutral bar is installed, it's definitely insulated from the panel. Moot if the panel is first means of disconnect and ground and neutral are bonded.
 
T

tthh

Senior Member
Location
Denver
Occupation
Retired Engineer
It just bugs me that every panel doesn't come with enough ground bar and neutral bar capacity on *each* side to accommodate a maxed out panel.
 
R

RustyShackleford

Senior Member
Location
NC
Occupation
electrical engineer
tthh said:
It just bugs me that every panel doesn't come with enough ground bar and neutral bar capacity on *each* side to accommodate a maxed out panel.
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To be clear, this one absolutely DOES come with enough capacity. It's just that there's a paucity of both ground and neutral terminals at the end farther from the main breaker. Less than $100 solves that problem, but that's annoying.
 
J

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
jim dungar said:
Yes, but an upstream N-G bond is simply creating a NEC compliant parallel path. All other down stream, like in the panel after the bonding screw, are not compliant. It might seem like splitting hairs, but how far downstream would you allow?
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I draw the line around the service equipment enclosure. It's not 'downstream' or 'upstream' if you're in the same box.
 
E

Eddie702

Licensed Electrician
Location
Western Massachusetts
Occupation
Electrician
I have been thinking about this (maybe a bad thing) But I was thinking about a 200 amp service in my cousins house. Underground to the meter. From the back of the meter socket 2" ridged into the back of the main panel.

2 hots and the neutral is bare which is legal. Meter socket bonded to the neutral, neutral also touching the ridged conduit into the panel with the neutral bar bonded to the panel

So as others have mentioned above you always have parallel paths.

I don't' see any violation putting neutrals on the ground bar as long as a jumper is installed.
 
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