Landlord responsibility for commercial buildling.

[markebenson]

Hi Guys!

I have a client who is leasing a commercial office space and upon changing outlets we discovered that there is no gounding system whatsoever. Only 2 wires run to each box and a very old FPC panel with no grounding rod. Could you please direct me to any documentation showing the landlord's responsibilty to correct this? We are in Florida.

Thank you!

 

[zbang]

Whether anything needs to be changed is a question for the local inspectors; who's responsible for paying may be a question of what it says in the lease. If the AHJ decides to inspect and then revokes the occupancy permit, it's probably the LL's responsibility. OTOH if the AHJ thinks it's permissible then it's probably the tenant's cost to update if they want the work done.

(The install may have been perfectly compliant when it was installed and unless the occupancy conditions have changed, there might be no reason for the LL to do anything.)

 

[pv_n00b]

If it met code when it was installed then it's probably still legal. So there's probably no building code based reason to have the LL upgrade the system. This is the kind of thing you have to look for before you sign the lease, those ungrounded outlets were a tell that things were really old. Even more so if the building is old enough to not have things like modern grounding.

 

[Jraef]

If it met code when it was installed then it's probably still legal. So there's probably no building code based reason to have the LL upgrade the system. This is the kind of thing you have to look for before you sign the lease, those ungrounded outlets were a tell that things were really old. Even more so if the building is old enough to not have things like modern grounding.

That may be true, but if the landlord or tenant does ANY improvements, the entire system will likely need to be brought up to current code standards. So if he can find a tenant that is willing to live with an ungrounded system, he can get by without fixing it. That tenant would need to be some commercial enterprise that does not use any electronics. Good luck with finding that company...

 

[gadfly56]

That may be true, but if the landlord or tenant does ANY improvements, the entire system will likely need to be brought up to current code standards. So if he can find a tenant that is willing to live with an ungrounded system, he can get by without fixing it. That tenant would need to be some commercial enterprise that does not use any electronics. Good luck with finding that company...

In NJ that wouldn't kick in unless you were renovating more than 50% of the floor area.

 

[wbdvt]

Depending on the size of the electrical system and if the AHJ is enforcing NFPA 70E-2015 an avenue may be thru that standard which requires the owner of the electrical system to be responsible for the " documentation, installation and maintenance of the field marked equipment". The field marked refers, in this case, to be for arc flash hazards. You might want to see if an arc flash study has been done as this would allow you to meet OSHA 1910.132 standard to protect your employees.

 

[iwire]

That may be true, but if the landlord or tenant does ANY improvements, the entire system will likely need to be brought up to current code standards. .

That is rarely the case.

 

[mgookin]

Hi Guys!

I have a client who is leasing a commercial office space and upon changing outlets we discovered that there is no gounding system whatsoever. Only 2 wires run to each box and a very old FPC panel with no grounding rod. Could you please direct me to any documentation showing the landlord's responsibilty to correct this? We are in Florida.

Thank you!

caveat emptor

 

[markebenson]

If it met code when it was installed then it's probably still legal. So there's probably no building code based reason to have the LL upgrade the system. This is the kind of thing you have to look for before you sign the lease, those ungrounded outlets were a tell that things were really old. Even more so if the building is old enough to not have things like modern grounding.

There are existing 3 prong outlets present but no ground wire connected to them. At first sign it is reasonable to assume that they were installed properly.

 

[iwire]

There are existing 3 prong outlets present but no ground wire connected to them. At first sign it is reasonable to assume that they were installed properly.

Are they supplied from a GFCI protected circuit?

 

[GoldDigger]

Unless they are GFCI protected and labelled no EGC present, three pole receptacles would definitely be an NEC violation.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[markebenson]

Are they supplied from a GFCI protected circuit?

no. There is no grounding system here.

 

[iwire]

no. There is no grounding system here.

Those two answers have nothing to do with each other.

You can have GFCIs with no 'grounding system'


You may want to take a look at 404.6(D).


What is the wiring method? Is it armored cable?

 

[markebenson]

Are they supplied from a GFCI protected circuit?

They are not.

I spoke to the bulding department today and was told that since work was done without a permit and the ungrounded outlets are creating a hazard then the landlord should correct the problem and if I want to proceed further then code enforcement would assist. Now I understand the landlord could opt to put 2 wire outlets back in (pending what the lease states the use of space is for perhaps),
but I believe the roof A/C among other things is connected to this non-grounded sytem also. I am going to check that.

 

[tkb]

Hi Guys!

I have a client who is leasing a commercial office space and upon changing outlets we discovered that there is no gounding system whatsoever. Only 2 wires run to each box and a very old FPC panel with no grounding rod. Could you please direct me to any documentation showing the landlord's responsibilty to correct this? We are in Florida.

Thank you!

When you say no grounding system, what do you mean?
Is the two wires run inside a metallic conduit? Is this old bx cable?

Either one of these are currently accepted grounding systems if properly installed.

 

[markebenson]

When you say no grounding system, what do you mean?
Is the two wires run inside a metallic conduit? Is this old bx cable?

Either one of these are currently accepted grounding systems if properly installed.

There is 2 wires run inside metallic conduit, there are 3 prong outlets installed with nothing connected to the ground terminal. The panel has no grounding rod attached.

 

[markebenson]

There is 2 wires run inside metallic conduit, there are 3 prong outlets installed with nothing connected to the ground terminal. The panel has no grounding rod attached.

 

[markebenson]

When you say no grounding system, what do you mean?
Is the two wires run inside a metallic conduit? Is this old bx cable?

Either one of these are currently accepted grounding systems if properly installed.

Could you please provide any code that would allow this? Opinions i have gotten so far say pulling a green wire to the existing panel is needed at a minimum. There is 2 wires in metal conduit.

 

[tkb]

Could you please provide any code that would allow this? Opinions i have gotten so far say pulling a green wire to the existing panel is needed at a minimum. There is 2 wires in metal conduit.

Arent you an electrician? Do you have a code book?
It sounds like a handyman asking?

 

[JFletcher]

View attachment 16268 View attachment 16269

In that second picture there appears to be an undersized EGC in the box, which snakes around the black wire and appears to be landed on the receptacle under the electrical tape. Im pretty sure that's what I see. If you have metal raceway, the raceway may serve as the ground. Also, panel might be grounded via copper water pipe.

eta: there appears to also be a trimming in that box from AC cable... drain wire to the receptacle then?